Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why, do I hope that everyone reads this? It is a topic that really needs to be discussed. I know, that I have been " somewhat controversial " at times, but this is not about me winning a popularity poll or wether you like me or not. The topic is: ( BUYING IMPORTS )I know we have discussed this " briefly " at times guys and gals, but lets discuss some real good and bad issues here. First of all, I am as guilty as anyone over the last 17 " actuall years " that I have kept B.C.C. and Corallus and I have my own " justifiable " reasons for doing it as I am sure most of you guys do. I like import " adults " because they are the size that mothernature intended them to be and not power fed slobs and I have learned over the years how to be very successful with acclimating them and they usually outlive anything captive that I have ever had AND I am BIG on locality data. These seem like " justifiable reasons " and I am sure that you guys have your own, BUT there is no justfiable reason and WE ALL NEED TO STOP! I know guys and gals, I should have said; " In my opinion " BUT it is not an opinion, it is a fact and in our hearts, we all know it.I am sure that most of you guys and gals have never been to Miami on shipment days and even fewer of you have ever visited holding facilities in Suriname and Guyana, but I have and it will make any TRUE animal lover want to weep. My conscience has fought it as much as it can and I will no longer buy any fresh imports to add to my collection from any new shipments from this day forward and I will no longer contribute to wild populations of ANY animal being depleted. I have never been a slinger and do not buy imports to resale. I buy to keep and that means that I have not contributed to the demise as much as others, BUT one is as bad as a thousand! Why, do I feel like the rest of the Hobby and the world for that matter should do the same?? Well, lets look at the benefits; " Number one, the supply has already overrun the demand and we have enough animals in the country right now to keep captive bloodlines of morphs and Localities strong and healthy and we leave wild animals were they belong, IN THE WILD. Number two, buy doing this, we will put more pressure on the breeder to take care of captive stock and weed out the ones who are in the Hobby for the wrong reasons and by working together " the way it use to be " breeders can keep bloodlines strong and healthy for future generations and we stay honest and represent morphs as morphs and keep ALL LOCALITIES on the up and up. Number three, kinda goes along with one and two. I have been in this for 17yrs and I am not an old timer by no means, but even when I got into this, we had a very strong brotherhood and worked together on many things " including getting rid of the crooks and cheats " and it was nothing to call up one of your buddies and trade him some of your female Surinames for some of his males ( just an example ) so you could keep good genetic diversity and the diversity went a heck of alot further than saddle configuration and color. In essence, if animals are coming from breeders alone, alot of this brotherhood will return and as already mentioned " the boogers will be weeded out. " Number three, THE MARKET WILL BE MUCH BETTER. If breeders are only competeing with other successfull breeders and not having to compete also with tens of thousands of imports, the Market could not do ANYTHING but go up and prices would be controlled by the hard working breeders ( as a whole ) and once again ( not to beat A DEAD HORSE ) the pressure would be on for the breeder to be more responsible and keep bloodlines diverse. The only thing negative that could come out of " not buying imports " is the loss of jobs in the importing business. I hate to sound horrible, but this is AMERICA and the land of oppurtunity and there are other jobs out there. Some of you may say; " Easy for you to say John, you do not make a living selling imports!! " You are right, but how long can we continue to ignore what we are doing to nature and in essence, TO OURSELFS. Everything, can and will come FULL CIRCLE. You guys can either agree or disagree, with what I said. Take my personality out of it and look at the " principle " and search your hearts and maybe, just maybe, you will see this is truth. NOTHING, but good in the long run could come out of it, IF we are responsible.......GOD BLESS.......Johnson Herp

I agree with most of what you said. I too have bought and still have imports, they are great I would not trade them for anything. We really have no right to take these animals from the wild and I would not miss being able to buy imports although if I saw a smokin import suri in the classified ads then I would look into buying it. It's like a bad habbit that you cant quit. There are plenty of boas in this country right now and to quit importing would not effect being able to produce new morphs and locals it would actually improve it and the demand would raise. Now it is not about the money for me but look at normal BCI babies, I had a really hard time selling them at a loss so it tooks a few months and by that time I was willing to take the next offer I could get so they would not eat more than I could afford.

When I have more cages I would love to buy a pair of pure N Brazilian BCC's to raise and breed. These boas have not been imported for a long time now (that I know of) so they are a little rare when compaired to other BCC's. They would be my prized pets/breeders they would be very special to me and the fact that they are no longer imported would make them very important for me to reproduce them so others can enjoy them. The look of the boas would not be as important to me if they were pure brazilian.

Sorry for the long rant

-Dylan Keays
-----
True Redtails

John I agree with you 100%. I have been dealing with reptile since I was 9 and although the boas are a new adventure for me I have many reptiles. I have NEVER bought a captive bred reptile. I only buy for respectable breeders and check into them thouroughly before I buy.

But here's another point that people might not realize. I work in a manage a pet store and have been there for 5 years now. We only deal with captive bred animals (after much persisting on my part). BUt when dealing with the imported specimens they would all come in with major parasites and respitory infections. From the stress and conditions that they had been through since there capture. We would them start the process of trying to save them. We would be lucky if we save 50% of the animals where many times all of them died. These were animals that most likely have live long happy lives if they had been left to themselves. In my opinion they died needlessly seeing there are so many animals being bred in captivity.

Erin

I think what’s right is right and if one thinks that imports are indeed such a moral issue, that same individual shouldn’t possess imports, at least for the sake of hypocrisy. It is undeniably “do as I say not as I do”. It might be a stretch, but maybe it’d even be wrong to posses the proceeds from these WC boas then. Kind of like it is illegal to possess certain parts of elephants, even though that same person never illegally killed an elephant. This IS NOT my position, but thinking critically, this is logical and analogous. If it is unethical/immoral; to bring animals in under such conditions now, it certainly was then also.

Let none of us forget that ALL of the beautiful boas we see on this forum AND personally possess ARE, or ARE THE RESULT OF WC animals. Last I checked, we haven’t “domesticated” them.

It doesn’t take an economics doctoral thesis to prove that if there is no longer a cheaper WC source, assuming demand stays the same, then the breeders of such animals will benefit both by decreased supply and better price control.

I agree it cannot hurt anything but importers and cheap prices to stop collecting WC animals, but I would think the primary issue of interest or concern would be the survival rate and transit conditions of getting them here. I do not know of any urgent population projections for BCC in the wild but someone enlighten me if I am wrong. That would be some good knowledge for me to have. Certainly though, collecting cannot help unless they were overpopulated.

Since genetic diversity goes “a heck of alot further than saddle configuration and color”, John, tell us how you’d recommend we introduce such diversity into our breeding programs? Shall we flip coins, or pair them off by randomizing the GPS coordinates from where they were collected? I am just curious how you’d introduce this genetic diversity which you so staunchly advocate as you seem to speak from 17+ years experience.

You mentioned that you always buy to keep and that you’ve not contributed to the “wrongs” of import trade as much as others, yet you talk of the good ol’ days and mention the example of swapping several suris w/a buddy. I assume you produced these or just didn’t keep them?

At this point, I have to say I don’t think I’ve ever heard of you producing anything in those 17 years. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Since you have decided to be a little more pleasant, I will do the same.( I hope my grammar and spelling will not be an issue. ) First of all, I never said; " That I did not contribute to boas being taken out of the wild. " I said; " That I bought to keep and not sling and that because of that, I did not contribute to wild population demise as much as others, BUT buying one is as bad as buying a thousand." Therefore, I am as guilty as any and in essence; " a sin is a sin. " As far as what I have produced in the last 17yrs and what my experiance is, if you send me an E- mail and would like to talk like two grown men, I will spend a dime and be glad to conversate over the phone and you may see that; " I am not a bad guy, like some of you assume. " I will not go into a life story on here. This " Revelation " that I have had about not buying any more imports, has been on my mind, ever since I visited Guyana and Suriname a few years back and I have been in Miami on shipment day many times. As I said, Matt; " There are plenty of boas in this country already to keep good solid bloodlines going of most localities and even morphs, IF WE ARE RESPONSIBLE as a Herp community and represent the animals correctly. " Now. as far as what I mean by ( strong genetic diversity. ) I firmly believe that; " We keep alot of animals alive in clutches produced that would have never made it in the wild. " Like; " Premature babies and or runts and babies born with yolks still attached and babies who are somewhat shakey and showing bad neurological signs and even babies that do not want to eat well or have regurgitation syndrome for a while." The argument is; " Well, in captivity we can give these animals patience and tender and loving care and be fairly successful with keeping them alive and raising them and maybe even produce out of them. " My belief is; " When we do that, we are only putting out weeker genes in the captive gene pool and very few of those animals live long or produce long and something inside tells you that the animal has never been completely right. " So in essence, " I believe that those babies should be humanely euthanized, even if it means the whole clutch. " I know; " John you are a horrible man!!! " No, I love animals and nature with all my heart ( much more than humans actually and that should not surprise most of you ) but, even though I am not " Father Nature " I feel that in order to keep captive lines strong and keep customers happy and give them only the best, hardy and strong animals, that it must be done for strong future captive bloodlines. I am not GOD, but I took the "role" of GOD, when I decided to buy my first snake and too that snake, I am somewhat GOD and Nature. ( Think hard about what I just said before you redicule me for it. ) There is a hidden principle.Everyone, has their own convictions and these are mine. Nobody has to agree and contrary to popular belief; " I do not force my beliefs on anybody. " I believe I am took out of context for a few reasons; " One, I am very straight up and usually go against the popular grain of things and yes I can be a little brash and servile at times. " Not, because I am a mean old bast*rd, but because I have made mistakes and I have seen what works and I have seen what does not work and I try to let people know that; " They do not have to make the same mistakes that I did in the past. " That is as heartfelt as I can put it........GOD BLESS........Johnson Herp

One obvious point not made here is that regurgitation is likely a relic of captivity. Baby boas, namely BCC, regurgitate because we fail to provide them the correct environment, not because of genetic faults on their part. Perhaps we handle them after a meal, keep them too warm or cool, provide too large of food item, too often, etc. The BCC babies probably don’t regurgitate in nature.

While some individuals even from the same litter might behave differently, I believe that regurgitation is induced by captivity and thus breeding a boa that had a gurge at one time THIS IS NOT THE SAME as breeding say, boas born with one eye from a litter where some siblings also had one eye. I don’t know of any BCC breeders I’ve talked to that attempt to preserve animals born deformed, born with kinked backs, etc, nor do they try to propagate them

And, if your inference is correct that regurgitating IS a genetic propensity, surely nonetheless WE STRENGTHEN the genetics of our CBB boas by inducing a higher incidence of the regurgitation syndrome in captivity. This in turn causes higher than natural death rates of these individuals, thus eventually removing more of these from the gene pool than would naturally propagate.

I think the same thing goes for premature birthing AND for slugs. I don’t think nature makes much of either of these. Actually, I don’t hear much of premature birthing amongst the BCC guys I talk to (I have heard and seen a lot more of it with morphs). And while I am sure it has happened, I think it is far more the exception than the rule and in many of those instances, it is probably induced by US not providing the proper environment. Stressors, handling, improper temps, animals being gravid while imported, etc have all been mentioned as potential premature birthing causes. None of these are in nature.

So again, a boa born premature under these conditions or having regurgitation induced by environmental conditions IS NOT likely to be genetically abnormal or weak. These things are called an acquired characteristic, which is not genetically transferred. Kind of like if I have a lizard and cut off its tail, and even if I breed it to another lizard whose tail is cut off, the resulting offspring WILL STILL have tails.

However, your approach of euthanizing interests me. Please let me know how/when we should be euthanizing our baby boas based on their yolk mass at birth. Do we take yolk to body mass ratio? What is the cutoff ratio? I am curious how you’ve done this.

Some types of regurgitation ARE genetic and I proved it ( at least to myself ) years ago. I know what you,re saying, Matt and I am a firm believer and I preach all the time on how; " 90% of problems with reptiles in captivity ia a result of bad husbandry and or improper enviroment. " However, some things are passed down on the genetic level and yes, it does take somewhat of a trained eye to have discernment between; " what is bad as a result of enviroment and what is bad as a result of genetics. " No, Matt I do not have a yolk to baby ratio on euthanization, but it does not take alot of common sense to understand that; " In the wild, that baby laying stranded there with its yolk attached, is easy pickens for the predators and I believe that those animals not surviving in the wild, has more to do with than just BAD LUCK. " One more point, let me ask you a question; " How long have you actually been breeding B.C.C. and how many clutches have you produced?? " I can assure you, that premies and or runts and yolk babies and slugs are much more common in B.C.C. than you think. Alot of breeders try to hide these numbers from public knowledge, BUT I SWEAR, the numbers are as real as you and me. As I said; " If you would like, send me an E-mail madisonrecords@comcast.net with your number and we will chat further on this." I obviously, have a problem at times transferring what is in my head to my fingers and if not, Good Day, I am done.......GOD BLESS.......Johnson Herp

You are exactly right; " Regurgitation syndrome in the wild is VERY rare, unless the animal is doing it to escape a predator or an annoyance, BUT think about that statement long and hard. " You, have answered the question obviously without knowing it; " It is rare in the wild BECAUSE the babies that were born with these defects never made it to adulthood and YES premies and runts and slugs and yolk babies and regurgitators happen all the time in the wild. " It is simply; " Natures way of giving back and only the strong survive. " I have been there and have seen it with my own two eyes.You truly answered it Matt and actually have helped to prove my point, instead of disprove it. If you cannot remember your statements, go back and read what you said on the wild occurences of the aforementioned and then think about what I just said and you will see what I mean. Thanks for the help!......GOD BLESS.......Johnson Herp

How did you prove regurgitation syndrome is “genetic”? Please answer this question.

So let me get this straight, for the record, “madisonrecords”. If a baby is born with visible yolk, it should be euthanized? Maybe you could send us a picture from one of your litters showing what a “euthanizable” baby should look like. You’re the one who said it; I am just trying to determine how, by your standards, one would know if they should allow a boa to live or not.

I guess I have to repeat myself. I simply said I doubt premature birthing is nearly as common in the wild and that it is a result of the captive conditions that we do/don’t provide. Let’s for a minute believe you and assume, based on your expert and eyewitness accounts, that there are plenty of babies born in the wild with cumbersome yolks. You seem to infer they are delivered in the middle of an open, sunny field. Chances are, the mother boa WOULD find a hidden area to deposit those young and they may/may not have time to absorb such yolk and make off. I can’t believe I am actually spelling this out…good thing for me I am a fast typer and just about as fast of a thinker.

If you’ve ever produced any boas (another question you still haven’t answered), you’d notice the restlessness and strong preference of the mother boa to deposit her young in a box, under or paper, or in some way she often tries to hide them if the caging allows. At least that has been my experience thus far and what others whom I have learned from have told me as well. So preemies WILL have a chance BOTH in captivity and in the wild.

You assume that regurge syndrome actually exists in the wild AND that those animals die when in fact I STATED I felt regurgitation is INDUCED by improper captive conditions and probably DOESN’T EXIST in the wild with maybe some exceedingly rare, almost onetime exceptions. I needn’t “think long and hard” about anything; you have proved nothing Johnson other than you do not know how to read what I wrote in the first place.

IF YOU thought any further, you’d realize that if all “genetic rugurgitators” were to die off in the wild, then certainly if it is genetic, THERE WOULD BE NONE in captivity, since captive are indeed descendants of these same WC generations where regurgitators never make it to adulthood.

And to answer your question, even though you have not answered my questions asked more than once, my BCCs have produced two litters (not clutches as you said; I thought those were eggs?) since 2002. I am very pleased with what has come of those breedings and you can see them in my album as almost every picture in there has come from those litters. I am not here to “stick fight” w/you over who’s produced more, as quantity produced is not even a goal of mine, nor am I competing in that. I, and I am sure others, are just VERY curious what someone like you has produced to have so much knowledge on breeding, inherited traits, and genetic diversity.

I have made attempts to induce breeding in different boas, and each time I was successful in inducing courting and copulation. I have worked with Hoggs, Dumerils, and BCCs. Nothing but slugs came of my Hoggs, simply nothing came of the Dumerils because I sold the pair while they bred. This year I have had exceptionally warm weather, have some questionably mature new individuals, and have tried a different cycling technique so I am a bit worried on my outcomes. Time will tell.

I am always asking questions of myself and others. I can only say what has worked for me and what my intuitions say. What I try has worked for me and I have my mentors to thank for my success thus far.

So here, to keep it simple (KISS), I’ll concisely review the questions for John Johnson and see if he can answer them, or if he will just “tap dance” around them yet again:

1. How have you proved regurgitation a genetic trait? It would be nice to let us know so that we can selectively breed AWAY from it and never have gurging BCC boas anymore.
2. Since you’ve said we should, how does one know when they should be euthanizing a newborn boa considered to be premature? Please give us metrics, something we can measure to be sure. We all know not to keep animals w/kinked backs, etc, but what about the preemies? All you told us was that “it does not take a lot of common sense”.
3. Since genetic diversity goes “a heck of alot further than saddle configuration and color”, as you said John, tell us how you’d recommend we introduce such diversity into our breeding programs? Shall we flip coins, or pair them off by randomizing the GPS coordinates from where they were collected? I am just curious how you’d introduce this genetic diversity which you so staunchly advocate as you seem to speak from 17 years experience.
4. Last, for at least the 2nd or 3rd time, WHAT BOAS HAVE YOU PRODUCED AND WHEN?

Thanks.

I still feel alot of sarcasm from you and it amazes me; " How you can start to dislike someone that you have never even seen. " Maybe, that is starting to apply to us both. It is hard for ( a less than witty HILLBILLY ) like me to sometimes get my point across on a computer; " especially when I despise them. " I am old fashion and like to talk to people man to man and once again, I will make you an offer and even spend my own dime. My E-mail is madisonrecords@comcast.net and if you send me your number, I will enlighten you on all your questions concerning me as it " pretains to this hobby. " I will not go through a Reptile Biography on this forum and throw names around without permission. Pretty simple, Matt. Ball is in your court?.......Johnson Herp

You prove my point once again Johnson. I ask 4 simple questions about topics you allude and profess to know so much about, yet not one answer! Amazing. Any normal, communicating human would be frustrated with that.

I NEVER asked for a biography, names or any of that which you allude to in this last post, so please don’t change/fabricate the very nature of my questions. Your feeble attempt of falsifying that my questions asked for private information which prevents your response, is noted and ineffective. Direct questions require direct answers and I don’t know how much more direct I could have been.

So please, go ahead and answer the 4 questions, without “biographical info” and please don’t use any names w/out permission. I am sure that you can find a way to do this with the 17 years of boa husbandry knowledge you’ve harnessed.

Thanks but no thanks. At least when one types, they have ample opportunity to think ideas through before they put them down. You have had AMPLE time to respond, a lot MORE than in a speaking conversation, and if this is how you think people converse, not even answering each other’s questions and the like after being asked 3 or more times the same one, I’d rather save myself the frustration. You could just as easily have a one way conversation with one of the many boas you’ve produced.

Please see the last post for the 4 questions to review if you’ve forgotten for the 4th time or so.

Man, I just sat here for a freaking hour typing the answers to your questions and hit submite and it blanked out! ( No I am not lieing. ) I am not going through that again and I found your number and I will call you and you can choose to talk or not......Johnson Herp

Convenient…blanked out. But I believe you Honest John. Perhaps you should type it out again so that as I said, all the readers here can harness your 17 years of knowledge.

As I said in the one of the last posts, “thanks but no thanks”. Not only do you forget to answer questions, but apparently you forget to respect people’s boundaries. So I’ll say it here for at least the 3rd and hopefully final time: please loose my number that you called today, as well as my email, unless you are calling to purchase BCC that were selectively bred for low saddle count, saddle configuration, and color.

Thanks.