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WTF's - difficult and frustrating to keep

Pyro_Knoblochi Feb 28, 2005 03:57 PM

Actually my girlfriend is the excited owner of several Whites. This is all very new to her (and I). I am very proud of her and consider her to be an intelligent pet owner (she has a couple other lizards, a dog and a fish). She started this hobby the right way: she did some research, decided what she wanted, got the housing ready, bought the supplies and then the animals.

She bought one little WTF from a local pet store. Then she bought two more from another pet store in the city. Then we bought two more adults online (there was confusion on our part about the type of frogs she wanted and we received 2 adult whites -- she wanted blue phase WTF)

Anyways, I noticed a leasion right away on the leg of one she bought from the city. Within three days the sores were all over the poor frog. We were able to exchange it. They told us it was an import, wild caught animal.

Of the two adult WTF's that we received from the internet purchace, one male one female, the female had a leasion on her leg (the same as the other animal from the city). We quarentiened the two and put them in sterile cages with paper towels and fresh clean water. The company had a guarentee on the sale but it costs more to ship it back then the frog is worth so the company told us to take care of it and it should heal up. It didn't. The guy who set up the order and personally sexed the animals said he didn't notice anything wrong with her and figured it was a shipping wound. Well the frog wouldn't eat. Finally after 10 days (she did eat one earth worm toward the end) she bloated up and died. She stunk so bad, like urine. The leasion had turned black. I was suprized she died. I really thought after she ate the worm that the sore turning black meant it was healing. I had to flush her because my girlfriend was so upset. So now it has been 14 days and finally the little male ate three crickets last night. I think he will be okay. He sure is jumpy. She named him "Psycho".

Now the smallest one she bought from the local store has not eaten in 2 to 3 weeks. He ate good the first week. The last time I saw him eat he downed a large cricket (now I've heard its bad to feed them something too big) We have been force feeding him with a store bought calorie formula for amphibians. He has been pooping which I believe is a good sign. In the last couple days he has lost all color. He does at least hop to his water bowl and sits his butt in it then back to his perch. Today she noticed that he is bloating. She says he is a "dead frog sitting"

Okay so that story being told, the other two from the city are doing well. She has them in a terrairium, a large sphear fish bowl maybe 10 gallons, with dirt, moss, and a couple tropical plants. They LOVE it, however if we turn off the warm day lamp they both want to get out (I guess for warmth) This makes me wonder about all the things we have read all say that a day temp of about 80 is fine and a night temp of no less then like 68 F is fine. Well, if they are jumping out then they must want a night temp of more then our night time ambiant temp of some 70 degrees F. So she got them a night glow bulb. Even with that cranking last night one of the frogs excaped again and is on the loose somewhere in the apartment (I doubt the dog would eat it but she wasn't happy when I reminded her about the california king that escaped never to be found last november) Anyways I hope she finds it. Now after I kept harping her about getting a screen cover she has built one. She doesnt want me to give her a hard time about it escaping because this happened last week also and I found it in my shoe -- mad her mad because she looked all day. I came in the room and looked for like 5 seconds after she told me the only place she didnt look was in my shoe -- he he he

I'm wondering if anyone else reading this has experience or thought on red leg disease -- I'm thinking that the leasions on bothe the internet frog and the city bought frog plus the bloating death and then the absence of appitite in 3 of the 6 frogs?

I guess I also need to find a vet to check for paracites and other stuff like e. coli and salmonella?

In conclusion, White's Tree Frogs are hard to maintain, at least for the novice. The "froggie hospital" is using up all my extra cages.

Replies (5)

Barbedwirecat Feb 28, 2005 07:48 PM

Not to be overley critical, but Unsure as I am about the housing you have aquired---a screen top should have been first on yout list. Like NUMERO UNO. Lets go over whats wrong here and try to fix the problems.

Whites treefrogs are NOT difficult for the novice if you do your research propperly. Actually Whites are what I reccomend for a starter frog to anyone who wants a treefrog.

I read you have a sphere fishbowl. Get rid of it. Or don't use it. Whereever you read that was the appropriate habitat was wrong. As for feeding, I'm not sure how big the frogs you had are--anything half as long as them may be way too big.

NEVER BUY A WC frog again. ALWAYS ask. And I probably wouldn't buy from that store again, since they sold you something that killed most of your frogs. Always buy Captive Bred please please please. For the sake of the wild froggie population, and consider being ripped out of your forest home, flown about 20 hours in a dark nasty container cramped with 100's or other frogs that may have diseases, it would make me sick too. Captive Bred specemins are less stressed, more hardy and more well started to a captive life. Also better buying FULL GROWN frogs as apposed to froglets.

Now I really do not want to be mean. At all. BUT---if the research was done properly---most of these issues would not have happened. I have dealt with my share of redleg, bloat, and other fun things. I have been keeping Whites since I was 8 yrs old. These things are VERY avoidable. Buy from a GOOD breeder. ALWAYS quarentine new animals, no matter if they are captive bred or WC (which you should not buy). Its normally take about 2-3 weeks to quarentine, and had you done this (seprated them into clean sterile tanks, paper towl bedding water bowl etc) You would have not run into the cross-contaimination you did.
I can not tell you what happened- nor what you are dealing with, Only that you need to SPEAK WITH A VET ASAP so you can treat the other frogs. If they have been in contact with the other frogs who have died----they have been exposed and will probably die as well.

You litterally have too many issues to help here so lets start on what you need ASAP.
Buy a 20 GALLON TANK (talkin fishtanks here) with a mesh screen lid. You really should NOT have them in anything smaller with more than one frog. SCREEN TOP, BUY ONE NOW---make one whatever, make sure its seals right. Get some appropriate lighting. Paper towels at the bottom for 2-3 weeks to monitor their bowel movements and them. Take stool samples to an exotic vet and have them do a fecal float/ culture. You need them to look for intestinal parasites AND bacterial infection. THIS SHOULD NOT BE EXPENSIVE.

I will list few pages and caresheets at the end of this so you can go over thing you need to change and correct with your husbandry. I do wish you good luck with your froggies. And what happens will happen, do not let her get discouraged. All you can do from this situation really is LEARN.

A few WTF sites---
http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/species/whites.html
http://www.bright.net/~a1rep/a1whitecare.html
http://www.repticzone.com/caresheets/140.html

If you need anymore help Please contact me at Phyllomedusa_bicolor@yahoo.com
-----
4 Whites Treefrogs (Gleep, Gloop, Gazoo, and Mrs. Chubs)
1 Red Eyed Treefrog
2 Bearded Dragons (Butterfinger, B.B.)
2 Argentine Horned Frogs (Endeavor, Mcfatfat)
2 Betta Splendins
12 assorted freswater fish (and growing)
2 Koi (peppermint, mr. winkie)

Pyro_Knoblochi Feb 28, 2005 10:13 PM

Thanks for the advice!

WhenI got home today I found the missing frog in less then 5 minutes. It was in the bowl hiding in the jade plant. She has decided to make a screen top for the bowl.

The little frog from the local store ("dead frog sitting" was alive when I got home this evening. He did not look bloated. He was not responding much to anything. I picked him up from lying face down in the moss. I set him up and left him alone. We ran out to run some errands and get more crickets. When we got home he was dead in the water bowl. I guess he went for one last swim.

The male frog, from the internet purchase, who ate 3 crickets last night, will not eat again today. As I may not have mentioned he was seperated from the little guy this morning after spending day or two in a 10 gallon (with a screen top) as to try to avoid any cross contamination (my girlfriend was sure of the fate of the little one from the local store who we had been force feeding) He looks okay. He hops like a psycho and is blinking and such. He just wont eat.

update later,
thanks again!

Oh and we will not buy WC again. I think the guy told me that over the phone but I'm pretty sure the web page said they were CB. And the lady at the pet store told us that when we went to return the first sick frog.

The other two in the bowl terrarium ate like little piggies and are back in their bowl now

Pyro_Knoblochi Feb 28, 2005 11:13 PM

As we are sitting here discussing this thread we noticed the internet frog (which by the way I checked the web page and it does say CB and the guy who sexed them told me they were WC) is gaping and sliming and looks to be foaming at the mouth like he is regergitating. I count one less cricket so I guess he ate one, but i cant be sure because it is a plastic critter cage and I already caught one cricket making an escape throught the vent holes. AHG! Anyway he is brite green but now he is just lying there eyes closed. He will continue to be quarintened (as my girlfriend reminded me has been this whole time and that she has been cleaning all the sperate cages with hot hot water)

About doing research: as I have been teaching her about the pro's and con's of the internet she has been able to point out to me several web pages where the care sheets for the WTF have contridicted themselves. One page will say all they need is a rock and shallow water and room temp is fine. Others will say they need coconut bark and humidity has to be this and temp has to be that and some say no light is needed but she found that the frogs seem to turn to a nice brite green with a warm uv light on them. She is really trying to do the best and have the set up look as neat as can be. She is understandly upset at all the time and effort that she is putting into these new pets only to have them die. She wanted Adult blue phase whites, she got adult whites that were not much larger than the "babies" she got from the pet store.

Furthermore she got a couple books to help her learn more: Frogs and Toads: an owners guide to a happy healthy pet by Steve Grenard. Reptiles, Amphibians, and Invertebrates: an identification and care guide by Bartlett, Bartlett, and Griswold. I also gave her a recent copy of Reptiles Magizine with an opening article on White's.

I guess what I'm saying is that with the exception of using a sphear 10 gallon fish bowl terrarium with out a screen top i would say she has followed the advise of all creditable sorces to a tee. I believe she is doing everything right as far as husbandry, feeding and cleanliness.

As she said this evening: With the misfortune of this internet frogs' inevitable fate at hand, it appears she has two good, healthy, happy, frogs.

Wow thinking about it now:
$50 for two WTF's from the city plus a 60 mile round trip return to exchange one.
$70 internet purchase (membership fee, shipping and cost of two animals) (the female died last week)
$25 for one frog from the local pet store (died today).
$30 in substrate (moss and brick dirt and coconut bark)
$30 in medicine, declorinizer, suppliments, etc

Plus who knows about how much each cage was...

Well it is interesting and they are so cute. I can not put a price on the joy of having two healthy frogs.

I think some of this bad luck is due to buying from unknown sorces and maybe the time of year is bad for baby frogs.

Barbedwirecat Mar 01, 2005 09:22 AM

As I said before this is a learning experiance. I have litterally had the same thing happen to me. I had 5 healthy frogs in a 55 gallon terrarium and decided the boys needed another female. Drove 40 miles to a petstore near NYC. Bought what I thought was a good looking female, got home, discovered she had sores underneath her belly and on her legs (I should have known to check, but I was younger and excited). Treated this with tetracycline (AFTER talking to vet) Her wounds closed and she was introduced after 2 weeks into the big tank. 2 days later she and another male were very very dead. I called the petstore and they nicley informed me they would replace her with another WC frog they had. I said NO WAY---And I got credit and got some dry supplies.

Its hard to learn this way about WC and CB, but I think we all learn this lesson eventually.
Thankfully this was over 5 Years ago, I know ALOT more now than I could ever imagine about Herps in general. And the same froggies I had then are with me now, surviving a 2 day trip and a stay in a hotel room (shhhh, the manager didn't know) from New Jersey to Tennessee. They are hardy little froggies, you just have to know where to start
GL to you guys!
-----
4 Whites Treefrogs (Gleep, Gloop, Gazoo, and Mrs. Chubs)
1 Red Eyed Treefrog
2 Bearded Dragons (Butterfinger, B.B.)
2 Argentine Horned Frogs (Endeavor, Mcfatfat)
2 Betta Splendins
12 assorted freswater fish (and growing)
2 Koi (peppermint, mr. winkie)
3 WOW char (they are pets too.)
Even us girls can like slimey scaley and squishy things.

Devious_froggy Mar 22, 2005 04:01 PM

Thats really hard to hear. I'm sorry for all your losses

heres my 2 cents: (I'm also in agreement with all the already posted information)

1)WAY to many frogs purchased at once, and from way too many places. and I cant believe she didnt know to quarenten (excuse my spelling :P) if she had read all those sources/books! where are you located? maybe someone on here can find you a good reputable pet store in your area. try and stick to one place, that way if something goes wrong you know where it cane from.

2) Just curious what size tank you have (had?) them all in anyways? i know critter keepers arent very big....you should have AT LEAST 10g per frog.

2a) not having a lid was a VERY bad idea. i'm not going to elaborate on that...

3) Especially because your frogs could be potentially sick, (please, please, plaese, take them all to a vet to get checked.) Extreamly frequent water changes can help eliminate bacterial buildup. this is still important if they are on meds, and when they get better. always change the at least once a day.

4) earthworms from outside arent the best idea, they can have all kinds of nasty bacteria, and possibly pesticides, in them. earthworms from bait shops arent much better. plus they arent very nutritious.

5) to help fatten up your little guys you can try feeding them butter worms. they're high in calcuim and fat (but not much else, crickets are still the best for protein) they can be expensive, but its worth it!

6) umm....thats about it for now...but if your ever unsure about ANYTHING, dont be afrade to ask, or you can e-mail me @ Devious_bunny@hotmail.com I'll respond as quickly as i can!
-----
0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

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