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I'm really burning about this and I'm not holding back any more. Living in OH near the KY state line, I was very upset to recently hear that this statment is now in Kentucky state law
relevant to teaching creationism vs. evolution in public schools:

".....any teacher,so desiring may include as a portion of instruction, the theory of creation as presented by the bible, and may accordingly read such passages out of the bible as are deemed necessary for instruction on the theory of creation, thereby affording students a choice as to which theory to accept.
For those students who accept creationism, credit shall be permitted on any examination in which adherence to such theory is propounded."

Creationism is a religious belief and had NO NO NOOOOO place being taught in public shool. I respect the rights of people to have their personal beliefs, but in the science classrooms of the public schools of this country, we should be teaching SCIENCE. Testable scientific theories based on mant years of data colletion and analization. The public science class is no place to teach myth, folklore and the like.

Enough is enough. Teach a perspectives class, and allow children to understand that different people around the world have different religious beliefs, if you like, but SCIENCE needs to be taught in the science classroom! Teaching religion as science puts an end point to the growth of knowledge to our future generations !!!

Dean,

Very gutsy of you to raise this issue,(Fred smiles and winks eye) Glad your back here,good to have you. Now time to dispense with decorum and put on 5 oz boxing gloves. lol

PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATIONS

Let me state the following in rapid succession,then clarify them.

#1) FIRST and foremost,for the MOST part public school educations in this country are nothing short of pathetic, both in terms of teacher to student ratios, teachers pay, and unrealistic expectations by administrators that said teachers are supposed to be able to create college-potential material from children that are either a)poor b) at risk c) non english speaking. And the teachers are expected to do this on a shoestring budget...and take money from their own pockets for ANYTHING that might stimulate thought and increase knowledge.

#2) In OUR public schools we PROGRAM our children on misinformation, half truths and out right lies.
EXAMPLE:

Lies: That in building the Missions in the Soutwest, the Missionarys brought to the Native Americans "culture" and brought them to God, and that they were friends.

Truth: The building of the Calif Missions was a BRUTAL AFFAIR, with Indians ENSLAVED to do the labor for free, brainwashed into thinking that their Gods had no relevance, and that their culture was evil.Raped, beaten, and stripped of their land.

Lies: That Abraham Lincoln was a good moral man, who brought about the end of slavery because it was an evil institution.
Truth: Lincoln himself said that he could care less about the slaves, that winning that war was his primary focus and that anything that would further that cause he would support.

Lies: That Settlers in this New World and the Native People existed in such harmoney that sitting down to Thanksgiving Dinner clearly showed the evident respect and love they had for each other.
Truth: The White Man coming to this country ulimately represented iGenocide for the Native Americans. Giving them disease laden blankets, rapeing their women, enslaving their men, burning their villages, trading their land from under them for trinkets when their concept of land ownership was nill, and lastly, taking them off of their land, moving them to less desirable land on a RESERVATION.Destroying their culture as best possible

Ok....you get the idea. Public school education is a big pile of crap, and they feed this pro military, pro founding fathers b.s.(Minus all the bad stuff of course) and pretty much reduce or deny any positive input from either African Americans, Native Americans, Mexicans, or Chinese....

ENTER EVOLUTION!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We teach EVOLUTION in the schools. Einstein himself beleived in Evolution, but said that he also beleived in GOD, as there were many things that Science and Evolution COULD not explain.
In Darwins later days , he also came ot the conclusion that their was a higher power and that many things he could not explain could be attributed to it.

In my opinion:::

I believe that we should teach Creationism in schools, as well as Evolution. Mainly because it broadens the perspective of the student. If we think to ourselves"Well, it is programming them and thats wrong"....REALIZE that they are ALLREADY being programmed and here are a few examples:

a> They are being taught that sex is ok, but PROTECTION is mandatory and could save their lives.Abstinence is not a topic of discussion.

b> They are taught that getting rid of a child they made while in school, before it is born, can be done without consent of their parents.

c> They are being DRILLED into beleiving that the President and the heads of state and rulers in this country are good moral people. That policeman are here to protect us, and that Priests are good men. And of course, that with aLOT of effort, any ONE of them COULD theoretically become President, or at least Mayor...

d> They are being taught that gay and lesbian relationships are just as valid as non gay relationships and homosexuality is not only acceptable but ought to be celebrated, all under the guise of sensitivity training.That marriage between two partners of the same sex is the same as that between aa man and a woman.

With all this being thrown at them, CREATIONISM isnt going to really damage them more than they allready have been. Or did I mean programm them?

Schools should not be places were misinformation and political agendas flow...yet they are.....they are factories for *TOMORROWS SOLDIERS* and for tomorrows non questioning, voting , tax paying, WalMart Shopping Citzens....

Teaching Creationism in schools merely gives an opposing point of view...something that frankly we dont tend to do in schools when it comes to history, when it comes to Science....

I hear you saying that many children would be polarized by having to listen to a religous lesson that doesnt jobe with what they are taught...or not taught at home. I agree, but there ALLREADY is a religion that is taught in public schools, that of ANYTHING GOES as long as it makes you feel good inside. Drugs, sex, abortion, pro military, pro big corporation, and waxing nostalgia about how things USED to be (You know..the GOOD OLD DAYS, when people were more moral and the founding fathers cherished freedom(Was that before or after the lynching and raping of blacks and genocide of indians?)

I say let them teach creationsim, and buddism, and also snake worship.....

But.....leave the founding fathers out of it.

LOL

Fred Albury

As always I respect your opinion Fred. Our major disagreement is on the fact that Creationism could be taught in a SCIENCE class.

Here¡¦s why I disagree the creationism and evolution should both be taught in public schools as SCIENCE. (and I do believe it can harm our children and future generations)

Again, remember I¡¦m talking about SCEINCE class.
Not a religion or tall-tale or voodoo class.

The scientific method involves collecting data, analyzing the data, creating hypothesis based on the analyzing and finally creating scientific theories. These scientific theories can (and should) be tested for flaws on an ongoing basis. As new information is gathered, the theories change, (¡§evolve¡¨ if you will ƒº ) and sometimes even are proved to be flawed.

A scientific theory HAS to be able to be tested for falsification. EX: There has to be some set of circumstances that we can say, ¡§if THIS happens, then we KNOW the theory is erroneous¡¨.
Or, ¡§if my snake breeds with another snake, I KNOW that my theory of it¡¦s asexual reproduction is false¡¨

RELIGIOUS BELIEF, such as Creationism, is just that belief, not science. There is nothing anywhere that could test Creationism. It¡¦s a BELIEF.

My friends, I do not criticize faith or those who have it.
BUT CREATIONISM IS FAITH, NOT SCIENCE.

Therefore, it should NEVER be taught in a science class as if it were scientific theory.
IT IS NOT, NOR WILL IT EVER BE, SCIENCE!

If a public school wants to have a ¡§global perspectives on religion¡¨ course, I have no problem with that.
Then you teach the VARIOUS religious beliefs that people have, and explain that it is ok that we have different beliefs and we should respect one another. But you can¡¦t just teach what fundamentalist Christians believe in this case. You should be teaching what the jews, american Indians, Moslems, hindus¡Ketc etc. believe as well. That¡¦s education.

Teaching a single religious belief as if it were science is not only NOT education, it puts an end point to the spread of knowledge among future generations, and puts blinders on our children¡¦s faces.

That is apparently what happens when you type on MS word and cut and paste on the forum.

Fred, You have a whole slew of damn good arguements (especially the one's about N.A.s) but two are flawed.

The first is about Homosexual relationships. Sorry but I will not condone condemning consenting adults any form of happiness where no one gets hurt-by that I mean ADULTS, not Mike J's bedtime pals. As one gay friend of mine said, "It's a cruel joke that nature played on us". In a world where hate is promoted strongly (in our movies, music...etc...) It would be better if some of us were not so judgemental. Frankly, with all the over population problems we have, in it's own way it helps.

Creationism is MYTH. There is no more truth to it than Marvel Comics.

There is no conflict btween faith and evolution-if one accepts Genesis for what it is; a metaphor used to describe a process that was not understood when it was first told to ignorant sheep herders in the deserts of Isreal-a quick and easy answer to stop uncomfortable questions from those who questioned the new religion. Every religion has such a story. It keeps the people who are too lazy to think from finding their own answers.

In an excellent movie; INHERIT THE WIND (the 1961 version. The Kirk Douglas version stinks) the point is made that there was no way to confirm that the six days (of creation)were twenty four hours or even twenty four million years. The mechanics of natural selection are solid.

It is only the fact that many scientists have not the moral courage to buck the religious tyrants that have a choker hold on the power of the people-by promoting ignorance-(and our elected officials are not going to buck those votes) that this ridiculous issue even is one.

We can now add Kentucky to the glorious(?) states (Kansas and Tenn) where the power of thought has taken a leave of absence.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That was based off the book by John Steinbeck...I read it in English class in high school. Great book...from the actual events of the "Scopes monkey trials" that took place in TN (in the 1930's? ) where-in a teacher was prosecuted for teaching the theory of evolution where it had been banned and the resulting trial.

Your thoughts mirror mine rearfang.

On the homosexuality issue, I'm as straight as an arrow, and, quite frankly the thought of homosexual acts DISGUST me (MALE that is, females are alright, wink wink)...but...I do not believe that we choose our sexual orientation, I think it's at least 90% genetic... and I would never want to see anyone descriminated against because of what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms. I'm not afraid of gays, and, even though I'm not a religious man, I can accept people who are different than I am.

I have always respected those who have different philosophies than I do as well, but...the belief, or myth or "story" of creation needs to stay in the religion arena, and no where near our science classes.

I'm so dissappointed in Kentucky. I was thinking of moving there too. Never underestimate the power of ignorant people in large numbers.

Good points all. I would like to share my personal opinion(s).
First, I believe there is a higher power but I do not put a name on it. I do not hold to one religious belief as I believe they all hold truth. I also do not subscribe to full blown evolution. I do believe in micro evolution if you will, but do not believe birds evolved from dinosaurs etc. With that clear I will say this..

Creationism should NOT be taught in science classrooms! They do not belong to the same topic of discussion. One is a scientific theory and one is a religious theory. I dont understand why we have not made this distinction yet. One thing I think most people(religious) miss is that evolution is a theory and nothing more. You DO NOT have to subscribe to it if you do not wish to do so. It is for you to investigate and make up your own mind. I just dont see the need for so much animosity towards the subject. But keep one thing in mind, if you wish to succeed in a scientific field you must be well versed in all important scientific theories, both basic and those directly involved in your particular field of study. Also we should never be afraid to confront our own beliefs by comparing it to those that others hold.

I dont know how homosexuality entered this debate but since we are here...

Sex between members of our race is for one of three things...
1) procreation
2) express some type of emotion through physical contact
3) just plain fun and pleasure

With that being said homosexuals can clearly express 2 of the 3. Now is everyone else aiming for procreation(the higher moral purpose)everytime they engage in intercourse? I dont think so. So now we are all doing it for the same other 2 reasons. I think in this counrty it is a hot topic because we arent very comfortable with our sexulaity. Every night my seven year can turn on the tele and view graphic scenes of war and violence and thats considered fine. But let a beautiful womans breast fall out during a sporting event and the country goes nuts. This I do not understand. We(especially in the U.S.) need to learn that sexuality is an individual thing that cannot be regulated through government. We have to learn TOLERANCE. You can hold to your own beliefs without condemning others. Just my thoughts.

Tom Eason

Good points Tom, though I disagree on the macro end of Evolution. The fossils exist that confirm the Dinosaur-bird link. These 'transitional' fossils have been turning up in China for the last several years (Paleo is my second love).

Dean-If you loved the book, then the Play derived from it INHERIT THE WIND by Jerome Lawrence and Robert E Lee is a great read. The orrigional cast included; Tony Randal as the reporter Hornbeck, Paul Muni as Darrow(Drummund)and Ed Begley William Jennings Bryan (Mathew Harrison Brady). Of course the movie had Gene Kelly, Spencer Tracy and Fredrick March.

The kirk Douglass version was a rape by the pro religion forces and as such a watered down and lifeless version.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050125_dino_chickens.html

Just wondered how you feel about this? I debated someone a bit ago(and took quite a thrashing)about the validity of the so-called dinosaur-avian fossil links.

Tom

In the Feb 05 issue of Discover magazine, there is an article about scientists at Michigan State who have "proven" that evolution is real. Using a computer program they have created digital organisms that breed thousands of times faster than bacteria. You can even download this program (Avida) and watch it yourself. They claim that a number of creationists have downloaded it trying to disprove that it works.
You can download the program here.
www.dllab.caltech.edu/avida
I havent tried it or anything but it sounds interesting.
Also, have any of you caught this show called Creationism (or somethiung like that) on the religious network. I have watched a couple of these shows and I find them quite amusing and aggravating. They talk about it like they have proof of creationism and can disprove evolution. If your up late check it out. If your up really late you can call and harass the "preachers" who will give you a vile of miracle spring water for a small donation.

EP

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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

Tom, Interesting, but as obvious by the illustration, the 65 myo specimen is allready easily recogniseable as a bird.

In China, the missing links are 124-128 myo. There is an excellent article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN March 2003 which goes into depth on this subject. Most of the creationist advocates seem to be unaware of this (deliberately?).

Species such as Caudipterx, Protoperyx and later the Microraptors all showed "Bird type feathers and were early "bird experiments.

There were several "false starts" as feathered dinosaurs came before the birds, but the end product was an Avian evolution of the "ostrich type" dinosaurs into Birds.

Interestingly enough, evidence points to T. Rex as probably having had feathered skin.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Peoples (Hope I didnt offend anyone by the use of the word Peoples

Dean made an interesting post,concerning bringing Creationsim into Public School Classrooms. I gace an opinion...mine, but wasnt evidently very clear about how I feel about the whole thing, so Illtry again:

I TOTALLY understand Deans point of view that Religion per se has no place in a SCIENCE CLASSROOM. Because it is a theory. Evolution however is also a THEORY, ergo,despite evidence, it too should not be taught in schools.

My point was simple:
OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS DO NOT TEACH ABOUT GOD.
They DO however instruct children in such sensitive topics as proper birth control measures, preventitive birth control(Versus abstinence) and also about the availability of discreet abortions...should the need arise if they dont use the above measures to prevent such. And they also teach about Homosexuality..with hopes of lessening the undue trauma and harrassment that gay students receive. Call it sensitivity training if you will. They also teach about Wicca.

But WAIT!! Theres more!
These same schools are institutions were the young minds involved are being fed a steady diet of patriotism and unquestioning loayalty to COUNTRY(Read boy and Girls: Military. and a completely SKEWED view of history.(Can you IMAGINE if HOWARD ZINNS "Peoples History of the Untied States" was used as a History book in Junior high classes?

So...Kids ARE being taught something. But...they arent being taught RELIGION. Or about God. But they are being taught about the Gods of Greed, Selfishness, Injustice, and Nationalism.
And also the Gods of Tolerance: Everything goes.

Now folks....when our schools start to teach TRUTH to our children, not the Catholics Churchs Truth, nor the Christian Churchs Truth, nor the Pagan Truth...but just plain simple TRUTH...without an agenda....why I say that when they start teaching our kids truth...about our leaders, our government, our history, our economy, our wars, our system...WHEN they start teaching that..THEN and only then can anyone truly dictate and say(In my opinion) that GOD shouldnt be allowed in schools. And he wont have to be...well have taught them TRUTH.

But teaching truth is to hard. And requires owning up to massive amounts of guilt and layers of complicated lies.
And yes, this includes truth about the early church...and even churches today(They need a house cleaning)

As far as homosexuality is concerned, let me go on record as saying this: I do not beleive that Gay unions deserve the same recognition or title of "marriage" that straight marriages have connotated to them. Marriage is first and foremost a tool for the protection of the children that would be created from said union. I beleive that Gay Unions ought to be recognized as such and have tax breaks and benefits that give the parties involved more control over their own afairs and lives. But marriage ...no. Just my opinion.

And lastly...frank, we agree on MANY things.....but GOD in my opinion is not a False theory made up to control the weak minded.

And yet throughout history, people have exploited a higher power for their own benefit and STILL continue to do so to this day.(I.E. Bush embracing GOD whilst bombing IRAQ and killing men , women and children that were inncoent of anything.

That doesnt mean that God doesnt exist.....just that we exploit everything for our own purposes

Sincerely,

Fred Albury

I'm so Googled Fred (lol)

To contest what I say you have to grasp the meaning of what I wrote. You didn't my friend, so I will elaborate.

There is no proof other than the "alledged statements" from witnesses that were totally unable to properly report-what they may or may not have seen, or experienced-what they were reported to have witnessed, by the advocates of the theory presented.

Or in other words.....

A bunch of early iron age shepherds, mystics and city poor whose level of education was so primitive, that storms and earthquakes were considered actions of a being that their priesthood said was responsible. Were in no way qualified to say what they saw (if they even saw it)was a god-or fireflies.

Such testimoney would not stand up in a court of law. I would not believe a politician or a salesman's claims about their product, yet you expect me to believe the words of a priest who earns his living off of 'selling' his diety.

Yet...This "theory" for which there is no proof of any kind except for the documents written and prepared by this priesthood, has come to be accepted as 'hard fact' by millions and is the basis for a multi-billion dollar industry that is supported by the earnings of it's supporters.

We call this RELIGION.

In contrast: A concept that is an explanation of facual occurences; that is supported by billions of pieces of hard evidence. A process that is measurable and is still occuring- You denounce.

We call this Evolution.

I do not say Fred, that a god of some kind does not exist. However, it is a theory that is unproveable; hence THEORY. It is corrupted to give an entire class of humanity (the various priesthoods) power over the people-and that means money.

The mechanics of Evolution are still debated and theory. The process itself is FACT. The evidence is there and more is found every day. It is measurable-and explainable.

It is for this reason Evolution should be taught in school, the same as any other science. We do not (for example) know everything about Medicine, or Astronomy. Should we stop teaching those because theory is still a part of them?

There is a difference between teaching fact as theory and teaching baseless speculation as fact.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Now for Marriage....

I do not see the primary function of Marriage as being "child production". it advocates a increase in population when the opposite is a more desireable goal.

I am not crazy about the use of the word Marriage in describing Gay Unions. I agree that a seperate terminolgy would better serve the conjoinment and that equal rights under the law should be bestowed.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Fred, The advocates of religion have their "forums". Those are called Churches, Temples, etc...

At this point in our history, The various Religions are hardly being prevented from presenting their case.

Yet Evolution is denounced from every pulpit. When Evolution is given fair (equal) time and representation in churches, then I will say ok...Religion should recieve equal merit in schools.

I would however not object if they were taught-as theory in a Humanities class.

Of course this will never happen because every priest knows that teaching Evolution is bad for their business.

The basis of Faith-as they call it-is; Don't think- just beleave what they tell you. Now see, if Bush had that kind of backing, he would have been elected by a landslide!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

Marriage as NOT an vital part of the institution of child rearing? You gotta be kidding right? Marriage is heavily about rearing children and providing stability for them.

As far as teaching sensitivity in schools, I understand why they do it, to lesson the persecution of kids that are gay. Frankly I think it sucks that anyone would pick on a gay person for his or her sexual orientation, just like I think it sucks when people make fun of autistic and developmentally disabled children/adults. The lowest forms of humanity prey on those that are the most vulnerable.

Now....BACK to CREATIONISM in our schools!

I
SAY
IT
AGAIN
As long as our public schools continue to teach a amalgamated mixture of mistruths, lies, and misinformation, in an attempt to "mold" young minds to do as they are told and not questioin the WAY things are run, how wealth is distributed and how our country affects world policy....then it really doesnt matter WHAT is being taught in classes. Because so much misinformation is being pumped into the kids heads at a crucial time in their development.

Creationism in a science class? No...maybe in a humanities class, and while were at it we can have REAL HISTORY in a ahistory class.

GOD DOES exist, even for those that do not want him to, or dont beleive. In the end, I would not want to be one of them that didnt. Think about it, if God came to this planet now,in the from of a man, what would the leaders and chiefs of state do?

They'd murder him.

Why?

Because he represents a threat to their power and control.
Because he couldnt be controlled and incorporated in to their sick macabre web of lies and deceit.

Enough said,

Fredrick Albury

PS
Timmy Watts is a name I borrowed,the name represents ANY student in public schools.

Fred,

This is why the arguement is an arguement.
You, like many other people, are obviously very passionate about your religius beliefs. Nothing wrong with that.

But because of that, everything in you wants other people to be exposed to your religious belief. That's human nature I suppose.

But it's STILL religion, and you STILL can't promote it in publice sceince rooms.

This is no fun. I like you Fred, I'd much rather argue with someone I don't know.

Dean,

I was just clearly trying to show that our schools DO teach our children, they just teach them misinformation.

I frankly would welcome the introduction of Buddism, Islam and other religions into school classrooms. Perhaps not in science class. I like you also, we just disagree on what we want taught to kids in public schools. I REALLY would like to see their format changed to truth and teachers given WAY more pay and classrooms with WAY more funds at their fingertips to encourage students to learn. To me this is first and foremost a priority.

Lets talk about hashbrowns instead, ok?

Fred

I don't see it as vital Fred. I came from a home where lack of a father would have helped. My lady lost one daughter because of the jerk she was married to. It is the quality of the Parents-not their marrital status that matters.

As to the other. There is a difference between having Faith in a god (which I respect) and stating (without possibility of proof) that its existance is a fact.

Gotta call you on that one.

I prefer Mashed potatoes (with grits on the side)and good porkchop gravy YuMMMMMMMMMMM.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Unless we change the constitution (which Bush may very well try to do) we are not to promote or teach religion in public schools. Or, more specifically, to PROMOTE any one religion.

Teaching creationism as if it were scentific theory would be doing that. There is a HUGE distinction that you did not make between scientific theory, which is based on the data, analyzation and repeated testing of the theorys for flaws...and a religious "theory" which is very simply a matter of faith that cannot be tested.

We are supposed to teach science in our science classes.
Evolution is science. Yes it's theory, but it's based on many years of exhaustive research. It's the best we have.

I think that people who wish to promote religious ideas in classrooms frankly have an agenda: They hope to convert people to their religious beliefs. We cannot do that in our public schools. This is up to parents and private institutions that parents choose to send their children We can't force our kids to be subject to the promotion of any one religion.

No matter what your faith (or lack thereof)
you are guaranteed 2 things in this country:

1- the right to practice and celebrate your religion.
2- the govenrnment will not select or promote a religion FOR you, thereby, in a sense, reducing your freedom of religion.

Bottom line-

Evolution = scientific theory, testable, changeable, and open to debate over the details of which. It belongs in science class

Creation = personal religious belief and a matter of faith.

It all seems very clear.

np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

Do you know where I may get a copy of that magazine? Thanks.

Tom

I would contact SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN and see if there are any back issues that are available.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

WOW, that was very a very intelligent insight. I agree with you in some aspects, but frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of people bringing this up anyways. School is school, who gives a rat's tail about the ethics of GOD/ the facts of the past. Point is, I very believe in GOD, and not in the monkey theory, however, I do believe in evolution and the ever changing world we live in. BUT!

LEAVE IT OUT of the school system, and let history cover creationalism, and science cover evolution, and let the children believe whatever they want to beleive. Their going to do that anyways..... Heck, I'm 16, and I do it..lol. Thats just my view of it.

~Blair~
p.s. I love the snake worship idea! OH HAIL THE SNAKES!

The conversation moved upstairs where it hit an empasse.

But to clarify your misconception....Creationists claim Darwin said "man evolved from an ape". If you read Darwin he never made that claim.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

oh, sorry, didnt mean to start anything, i just thought...well nevermind....im new to this mesage board thingy what do you mean bye "up top"?

The thread got too far down so we restarted it at the top.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

oh i see...sorry to intrude

Is anyone answering this post ACTUALLY on the "front line" or are some of you just smacking your chest and spouting bul$h!t you hear from tv and read in the newspaper? I am a h.s. science teacher...I just happen to teach in the (now infamous)school district in GA that has been all over the damn news about our "little sticker".
We do not teach creationism because it has NO EVIDENCE...no evidence = NOT SCIENCE. As far as teaching "misinformation"...please explain where you are getting your information. Teachers aren't in the business of knowingly or purposely giving "misinformation", it doesn't help our test scores (that comment is aimed right at all the G.W. Bush fans who actually think "No Child Left Behind" will actually acomplish anything)!
As far as the sticker, none of my students would have even known it was there if they hadn't heard all the crap on tv. Half of my kids don't even bother to go get their textbooks, although a few went to get them just so they could see the sticker!

BTW:
I do not to "teach" morals, religion, sex education and "safe sex". And it is obvious that most parents don't either!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Ok...By front line you mean actually teaching in a classroom. No I am not.

However, my opinions expressed here are not a product of TV. I am a lifetime student of natural history with a deep interest in Paleontolgy.

I leave bibles in hotel rooms when I find them (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Have no business whatsoever teaching science.

I am not a teacher but have several close freinds who are high school bio teachers and would go to court before teaching creationism in a science class.

There is EVIDENCE to support evolution and it is overwhelming if you open your eyes and choose to read about it. Sounds like your eyes are clouded by the Bible and you choose to remain walking through life wearing blinders and afraid to have your personal beliefs challenged.

If you think evolution is not sceince...then you do not even understand what science IS. Go back to chaper 1 and read about the meaning of the scientific method.

Believe what you want, but please don't teach your nonsense to our children!

Hey Dean...check your email and also what part of this quote that has been taken from my post do YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

"We do not teach creationism because it has NO EVIDENCE...no evidence = NOT SCIENCE"

Feel free to post an apology!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

I re-read you post and you are absoultely correct.
I stand corrected with egg on my face.

For some reason, I read your message as We do not teach "EVOLUTION" because there is no evidence"

I misread it...and in the little fit of anger it through me into, I typed like a jack@ss and condemed someone who has the same point of view as I do.

Please accept my apology and I will try to slow my eyes down or cut down on coffee or something so that I can actually READ.

I'm sincerely sorry that I insulted you.

Apology gracefully accepted. Most people would be shocked to know how supportive this school district (Cobb County) has been of the science teachers. This is not some "hick" school district in Georgia. On the contrary, it is one of the most affluent counties in metro Atlanta. I do not know of ANY teachers that teach creationism...it is NOT part of the curriculum and isn't tested, we don't have time to teach stuff that isn't tested thanks to "W" and all the other politicians. I allow my students to voice their opinions in my class, we have a great 30 - 45 minutes of debate. I present questions to all sides that can't be answered because it is important for students to have the opportunity to hear other arguments and think about what it is they wish to believe. Most of my students have no idea where I stand on the issue, I teach science and evolution is science. My students always ask me if I believe in God, I tell them I don't answer personal questions in class and it doesn't really matter what I believe, then I smile. I also tell them that the theory of evolution does not exclude the possibility that there is a "divine entity" controlling and tweaking evolution. I taught at a catholic school where evolution was taught in science classes too. It isn't my job or my place to change someone's beliefs.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

that comment is aimed right at all the G.W. Bush fans who actually think "No Child Left Behind" will actually acomplish anything

...I do have to say that I absolutely loved that comment. No, not necessarily a stab at Bush, more a stab at the act of idiocy also known as No Child Left Behind (actually read it and think about it - not the stuff you hear on the news about how everyone will be an A student). And to think with all of that I'm still going to teach high school math...go figure.

~Katie
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JK Pets - Online Pet Supplies

2.4 Cornsnakes (Slink, Shadow, Suzie, Snickers, Selena, Sunshine)
0.1 Columbian Red Tail Boa (Baby)
0.3 Leopard Geckos (Cutie, Lily, and Miss Piggy)
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Sam)
0.2 Pac Man Frogs (Gordito and Spud)
0.1 Suriname Toad (Squishy & the Squishettes)
0.0.2 Giant Millipede (Mega & Mila)
0.0.1 Green Iguana (Iggy)
0.0.1 Red Eared Slider (Tiny)
lots of snails and fish...

My kids, to keep them from being endoctrinated by other people with beliefs I dont agree with.....School should be for teaching kids the skills needed to become good well rounded adults able to function in this world...I consider government schools abusive, narrowminded and confining to our children and they need to be seriously redefined....Anyway dont get me started....
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There is the rub...and why my parents were wise enough not to indoctrinate me or my siblings with their beliefs. They found it smarter to expose us to both sides and let us decide based on the facts. We may not have come to conclusions that they entirely agreed with, but we learned to think for ourselves-which I think was their idea.

The worst (non violent crime) there is against our children is to retard or deny their right to think.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Dear cee4
I think you are right and homeschooling is the only way!!!

Dean-the only misiformation I see is yours! While you say you respect others points of view you go on and trash everything that surrounds the subject, but lets just put a few "facts" out for you to consider and for others to read........
If God had another creation before ours then so what? But there is plenty of proof that dinosaurs actually existed with man. There is pottery from the Mycean culture that has Tyrannosaurus on there pottery, the Australian outback cultures have dinosaur drawings unmistakably, as well as other cultures through out the world, but much of this is suppressed or dismissed, but these are facts not fiction, and that doesn't mean that every dinasaur that lived was there with man. There are animals that die out due to many different ecological changes that take place, why dinosaurs have not lived unto this age I don’ t know and hundreds of paleo-people have been arguing several diffrent plausibiliteis the fact is no one knows!!!!, but let me also share that there are many living dinosaurs that are with us today. For instance the is a boney plated fish that lives off the coast of Madagascar and the first of it’s type was discovered in a fisherman’s net back in the late 50’s. Since then there have been something like over 50 of these captured (NAtional Geographic). So what you ask? These are the coelacanths of which we have tons of fossils that date back even before dinosaurs. So if evolution is a viable and consistent why is that 100,000 of years later the same fish exists alive with no change what so ever in it’s body? Why is that the ancient race of crocodiles in Chinas desert recently discovered has not changed one iota from its fossils discovered in the sands? The Bible talks about a fearsome animal that has a tail the size of a weaver’s beam, which would be massive and is not a description of a crocodile as they had a word for that.

If I took a pocket watch and wrapped into a cloth, and then took a hammer and smashed it into fine pieces and then with one fell swoop threw the contents in the air, there are those that would have us believe (that means you!) the watch could fall together when it hit the floor in total working order due to a random act. There are no mathematical probabilities that are large enough to express the impossibility of that scenario, yet a 150 year old theory still dominates the minds of many which has been manipulated to inth degree in order to remove the idea of God—which any of you that has served in some of our greatest institutions of learning have so received teaching that designed God out of it’s curriculum, in spite of many of these greatest institutions having been founded on the truth of a creator at its founding antecedents.

With respect to one of the greatest atheist of our century who was the bulwark of philosophical discussion and debate about the existence of God, a man who has debated every great theologian of our century including at a young age C.S. Lewis, has now at the age of 81 recently debating a Jewish scholar has now said that having studied the evidence of DNA research, that there must have or is a master designer and that he no longer believes as an atheist, although he has not identified the creator he has now come to acknowledge this “fact” because in the light of DNA research the mathematical probabilities of this type of complexity is impossible to have been accidental or even random.

I can't speak for the cirriculium that is being taught but this I know since the HUbble Telescope discoveries there are absoulute proofs that your position is dead and in fact National Geographic and other institutions of hihger learning are starting to back-off on the retoric with respect to a Designer....So I challenge you to read some of the new high end books out there on the subject written by those so called scientists and I challenge you to challenge their posiition, in a very short period of time, the theory of evolution will be a bygone word, because some of our greatestr atronomers, and microbiologists, as well as some of creation science people are beating you to death with fact! So my questions is what would it take to convince you? What if you were accountable to God? Someone once said it doesn't mattter what you believe through your life, but the last day of your life the truth is the most important thing you could know that day........ Instaed of blowing off half cocked like some real intelligent being, it might behoove you to become humble and consider the plausibility that your not only wrong, but you are the product of God. By the way that's not religion-
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Ok...Now you are walking in my park.

First of all you are coming from some errors in fact.

There were many species of Coelacanth, Coelacanthtiformes goes back to the Silurian period. The two known species of extant Coelacanths (found off Madagascar and Indonesia) are similar but not identical to the forms that were present with the dinosaurs. Also your date is wrong. The first one was caught in 1938.

Evolution does not occur in a straight line (which is a concept that seems lost on Fundimentalist rationality). You should have gone for the Horseshoe Crab-as it is far more ancient and again, similar (but not identical)to forms exist today.

As to the alledged T.rex found on pottery, I have allways personally saw it as a big strecth (wishful thinking) to call the 'dragons' pictured there as That.

Dragons are in most human mythology, which raises the question better than your example.

The same is true of your 'identical' crocodiles. I have one of those in my extensive fossil collection. And by the way, my sources are far more accurate than National Geographic.

Personally, I think your watch needs winding....

Comparing a machine which is incapable of altering it's 'genetics' (and I used the term loosely) with a living oraganism is again a poor example of reasoning. How about for example-a species of Butterfly that occurs in England, that WITHIN the last three hundred years has changed from white to sooty gray in England's industrialised cities? There are many examples of modern-Natural Selection-if you look outside of the Creationist guide to folklore and Christian myth.

DNA is marvelous in it's complexity but so is the chemical formula of Tourmaline-which is completely explained by current scientific knowledge.

Hubble has not "Proved that the Evolutionary Process does not exist. Someone fed you a line there. Making a statement like that is preposterous at best. All Hubble has done is to show the outter reaches of our known universe extend much farther than science thought.

The bottom line on Evolution is that it is an imperfect process which has left ample evidence of it's millions of failures-hardly the so called product of Intelligent design. And my friend, when I read the rationalised garbage that (so called) creationist scientists) have laid out to muddy the subject with superstition, it makes me wonder if (as they once said) man is de-volving.

I suggest you try reading legitamate liturature. For a start-Scientific American, which is a much better source of fact than what you are reading.

And as to your final statement. I would rather stand before My creator (if there even is one) as an honest man, than as a hypocrite that chose the 'safe' road over what my eyes and mind have determined to be the truth.

I choose to think rather than to submit to superstition.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Evolution, simply defined, is the change over time of a species or a group of organisms. If you don't think evolution has and is still occurring you really need to get out more. Evolution doesn't have a whole lot to do with creationism. People argue it that way becuase they feel the bible (book of genesis, specifically) is the "truth". We don't teach speculation without evidence or experimental data. As far as probability is concerned, if there is enough trials, then ALL possible events could occur. In other words, if you play the same lottery numbers for 13 million or so times (depending on the # of numbers you would need) you might win. Evolution is more than just probability, laws of physics and nature (I would love to see you dismiss those as "just theory" also play a role in the process of evolution. Sort of like card counting in blackjack, you may not win everytime, but over the long term you greatly increased you odds. And that is what probability is, odds that some event will occur as opposed to all the other possible events.
I also find it rather amusing that people will believe in a "divine entity" that happened to come from where? Did it just pop into thin air, who created the "creator". "Creationism" has a few issues.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

If man co-existed with all these ancient animals then how come Modern human fossils have never been found in conjunction with anything older than one million years if that? Man has usually disposed of their dead by burial. Homes, tools, weapons-man leaves signs of his passing. There are none that are found in ancient rock. There is a simple process called Stratification. Simply put...That which dies first,is burried lower. We find fossils on the surface, because erosion wears down the rock that encases fossils. In such an instanceof lower strata being exposed, Human fosils would be preserved the same way in the same mineralised state.

If you can convieniantly ignore Geology too I guess you can rationalise that too.

Frank

Anyone want to move this thread to the top?
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."