Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Be patient...I'll get to the point eventually...

Science has proven that DNA can be manipulated by inserting DNA strands into the body. These strands effectively modify target areas of the body's own DNA. (I've oversimplified the process for brevity.) Leading research has surfaced where rats are being modified in this manner to make their muscles become either leaner for endurance or bulkier for strength. Both of which were possible without putting the rat through any kind of workout plan. (The bulky rats are called Schwarzenegger Rats) This type of genetic manipulation has been done successfully 'in situ' before the rat was born and to adult rats. The implications to the sports world are astronomical. There is a worry that such doping will begin in humans by the '08 Olympics and there is currently no way to detect it. But I digress...

I realize that such an operation is prohibitively expensive for even the most affluent private herper--for now. But what is the thought of being able to someday the morph of a snake by *simply* researching on the genetic level which genes to turn on and off? The old days of going years on morphing projects would be behind us. The technology is here--this is not science fiction. Should we try to pursue it at our level?

So what's the opinion: Takes away all the fun or opens up the door to some really serious designer snakes?

Also, what are the moral implications? What happens if the designer snake gets into wild populations? What impacts to nature's delicate design could we have? For the religious (I count myself as one), do we have any business messing with God's creations in this manner?

I'm posting this question in the GTP forum, as well. Sorry if this topic has already been beaten to death.

Interesting.

I can see that this sort of technology would be helpful for - say - eliminating genetic faults in captive breeding populations of endangered animals, to protect their future survival. Whether you would then wish to release such animals back into the wild, would be another question (albeit that most endangered animals got that way because their habitats were destroyed or damaged by man, so unlikely that you'd be able to release them anyway).

However, using this sort of DNA manipulation to change the colour of Corns seems, well... frivolous. If someone were that rich and bored I guess there'd be nothing to stop them, but I would have thought there are way more purposeful things to do with it.

For me, part of the fun is seeing what sort of undiscovered hets are lurking in my animals. Or even proving that there aren't any. Would it really be so enthralling if I knew with 100% certainty, what morph was going to emerge from which egg? Perhaps the large-scale breeders would find this helpful, but for the hobby breeder like me? I wouldn't be interested.

As for the "messing with God's creations" angle, well, it was God that gave us the ability to do it, so there must be some higher purpose to it. Just maybe not tinkering with a snake's skin colour!

Isn't it a little late to suggest that we can start "messing with God". Look what's already been done (or undone if evolution is a valid theory here). I don't want to get into a religous arguement or anything but just because we have the ability to really mess up some nice snakes doesn't mean that we should. I can think of a lot of other abilities that humans have that I don't think are included in any "devine plan".

As far as the DNA genetic mutations go, it would begin in harder to breed/less prosperous animals as it would hardly change the business of already easy to morph corn snakes. For a time line here, you'd be look'n at another life time. DNA mapping hasn't begun in snakes to the degree to even suggest altering morphology. (Just sexing snakes isn't easy yet) Yes, it is possible, but think of where snakes are in the line of animals that are desirable to be mapped?

This science is only a few steps ahead of those transporter things in Star-trek. They've transported an electron, but don't count on anything usable for a loong time.

"I can think of a lot of other abilities that humans have that I don't think are included in any "devine plan". "

Ain't that the truth! Free will's a beggar. I blame the snake myself...

I don't like the possibility of "switching" genes on and off to make new morphs, as a viable alternative to line-breeding. I think it would take the fun out of it. That having been said, I think it will be a LONG time before it gets to that point. When it does get there, I will already have a unicorn or two on my "Mythical Beasts Ranch," but they wil probably be Dragon food. There are simply more important things to do. Say, reversing climate change, providing clean water to humanity, and feeding the hungry, (150,000 people per day die of starvation every day, we can prevent it.) just to name a few. this will be right down there with making Fruit-Stripe cats and rabbits who play the banjo.
So, as far as the actual science of it, yeah it's a distinct possibility, but I don't think it will affect "the herp community," much for a long while. How about cloning Beluga Sturgeon to make lots of impact-free farm-raised caviar?
Maybe we can finally get the "trundlefart" Corn!
Let me clearly state, for the record:
Evolution is definitely a fact, we just don't know the exact processes and laws (if any other than pure quantum possibility fields) that govern it.
Evolution is a fact
Evolution is a fact
Evolution is a fact
Welcome to the 19th Century people. Evolution is a fact.
Criminy, Darwin's work, albeit flawed and incomplete, was published in the mid-19th Century and we're still arguing, from some pre-medieval perspective, that evolution is just a theory. Evolution happens, with or without "intelligent design theory," or "creationism," and regardless of how we justify our own position, or denigrate another's: EVOLUTION IS HAPPENING NOW.

The idea of evolution and the idea of "God" are not mutually exclusive!

Even if you need to believe in the "God idea," it does not prevent you from believing in evolution. Why can't evolution be included as part of "God"'s divine plan?

I sincerely hope we don't ruin the natural world with all of our new found powers. I see life out of balance. Watch those amphibians disappear.

For all of you theists out there, ponder this: If we were created by the creator and not only that, but "Created in His own Image" then why should we not be empowered to create and/or alter life ourselves?

I'm not revealing what I personally believe, theologically or philosophically, but I am saying whomever you are, your beliefs should be consistent across the board.

Happy breeding everybody, here's to wishing for peace and prosperity on Spaceship Earth.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

Um, no, evolution is just a theory. Any scientist would say so. But I think you're making the mistake that theories have no real credibility.

In scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.

Science uses the 'scientific method' to prove (actually disprove) a hypothesis, which is an educated guess about some observed action or phenomenon. If a hypothesis stands up to enough scrutiny through the scientific method, it may become a theory.

A fact, or Scientific Law, is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation.

Some scientific laws (there aren't many) include the law of gravity, law of motion (or interia), the law of thermodynamics, and Hook’s law of elasticity. Laws tend to be simpler in scope than theories.

Creationism, so far, has little scientific backing. Mostly because noone can figure out how to come up with a repeatable test. And, as you sugguest, who's to say that all of this isn't part of the devine plan.

I sort of agree with another point, we probably won't mess too much with our snakes' genetics through the microscope--at least not at the hobby level. But I'm also sure that we're not really going to solve the world's socio-economic problems in the near future, either.

My next dog, however, will be able to read in 4 different languages.

I am not referring to "Evolution: The working Scientific Theory of how and why evolution happens" I am referring to "Evolution: The biological adaptation of living things to their environment." They are two different things.
The latter happens, and there is no disputing it.
Sorry for being unclear.

I want a multi-lingual Newfoundland!
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

Example of evolution which cannot be disputed: viruses.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

Mapping the human genome (and others) has led to some very interesting research areas. Obviously, the more lucrative ideas will be tried first. Mapping less 'popular' animals with no or little economic value will come much later. But as computers become more powerful and our techniques more refined, I foresee a day when such mapping will be very easy. And, so far, companies that successfully map a particular genome have been willing to share their efforts with others--either for free or a modest fee (usually by subscription).

I also believe that we will see such genetic manipulations within our lifetime. This stuff is accelerating. Will it ever enter into the herp world? I don't know. It has entered into the cat and dog world. Today it is possible to clone your cat for $10K US. Not the same as changing the feline's fur color, but it's in the same ballpark.

Even if it does become possible, in order for our hobby to be significantly affected, we, as hobbyists would have to seriously change how we do our 'research'. We'd have to become more medically and research lab minded. For those of us who already have full time jobs in other areas, this may not be very interesting. Also the simple cost of doing this sort of manipulation even on a lab scale will always keep it out of reach of the hobby. Just don't be surprised if a Herpetologist out of the University of Florida decides to make blue and orange corns as part of his/her research project.

God has given us many wonderful gifts. It would be foolish of us not use them for the benefit of others. But God also gave us the gift of choice, which means we have the power to abuse these gifts.

Keep on herpin...

I will want a unicorn. I mean, get a mellow leucistic antelope, add some long curly hair for mane, beard and fetlocks, add some iridescence, tweak the horns into one, wire its mind so it's calm and docile, but I digress...
Now for late-night random thoughts.
Regular breeders are already doing marvelous things with color. Sure, it's slow and it'll take a while for some morphs to be commonly available, but still.
But doing more spectacular things with color worries me. There's too much room for abuse. I'm not too worried about designer snakes being dropped off in the wilderness, with bright coloration, most of the random stupid-person getting rid of unwanted pets scenario reptiles will be sitting ducks and promptly eaten. And no government is going to condone the mass tweaking of a native species and then mass release them.
But what does worry me, is when they get cheap glow in the dark anoles or hot pink cute baby iguanas, or some poor miserable species altered en masse to look like an attack reptile from some fad movie. It'll just be another disaster on par with painting baby turtle shells or seling hermit crabs at malls. I could be guessing wrong and hope I am.
I don't know much about the technology and potential, but the thing that captivates me more than color, is if they could alter the very natures of these animals to raise intelligence, or cognitive skills or docility. But this itself is a slippery slope. If someone makes a large boid as intelligent as say, a carefully bred German shepherd, that comes with a big problem. Because a German shepherd is an affectionate pack animal and the snake, is a simple solitary predator that just got some new skills. Which gives us the ingredients for a nice B-grade movie. So to counteract that, affection and some kind of herd instinct would have to be added. Which may make the snake recognize people as it's warm and fuzzy buddies, but then is this scaly pack animal still a snake? How much human contact will it require to stay content? And this instinctive creature won't have any reference for complex social expression and communication the same way that a dog or cat does. And when will a baby of this new reptile first need human contact to adjust well? Will this smart snake go nuts with boredom in a normal setup? Or even one of those naturalistic enclosures?
With religion, I'm religious (not mainstream type) but very, irreverent. So, my three points are this. 1. Natural animals, just as-is are absolutely stunning and many morphs don't look better. However, 2. We're already messing with the "plan" and have been for a very long time, since the domestication of the horse and onward. and 3. It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. So long as we don't really screw up.
And with all that said, I still really want a unicorn.
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0.2 chickens (Falcon & Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human