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[I'm inclined to belive that the entire western continent is drying anyway, due to evidence from the Mojave Desert, and that there are many other weather factors involved, but...]

As the East Coast is being battered by storm after storm, with some locales receiving up to 10 inches of snow, the west coast had a VERY mild winter, and spring began early - again.

Trees were budding at my library in late Januray; some blooms appeared in early February. On Feb 18 I hiked at the local National Wildlife Refuge in 64-degree weather. It was the 3rd day that week with highs over 60 degrees. I saw a garter snake out sunning! (Frogs are croaking at night.)

By Feb 28, temperatures no longer got below freezing, and blooms of many plant species began all over town. Rhododendrons, which normally bloom in late March, are already budding.

Our grandkids may no longer need to brumate!!!

I like to discuss this type of stuff to a degree because it was also a kooky winter in many other parts of the US. I heard more stories of snakes being caught in January this year than ever before. So to try n keep on topic lets hear what people think about the effect of this on reptiles which should be brumating during this season.
In captivity many people try to keep things at what they feel to be an optimum temp of for example we'll say 55 degrees. I myself do not, and leave my snakes in my garage. I live in central Texas, and I saw many days this winter which were warmer than I would prefer but I take into consideration animals in nature deal with it fine,,,,,so my snakes should also do OK. Most people I know were excited to find snakes so early. Then again many times after unseasonably warm days temps would fall bigtime and we wonder how these animals cope? South TX actually had snow....and then 80 degree temps shortly after. I often said to people who strive for a perfect maintained temp of 55 something to the effect of " snakes in the wild simply can't all lay bad clutches this year due to warmer than average temps...can they?". So.....that is the question I propose.
Do any of us feel it indeed WILL have an effect on snakes in the wild and numbers of offspring produced....or will this year be like any other normal, colder winters...and have basically the same amount of production. I predict Kerby says we have no way of knowing LOL.....but still, I say it should not have too much of an effect.....what would you think? If I am way off topic from what you were getting at Ameron just say so and we'll take it from there. Tom Stevens

One must also take into consideration that surface temperatures we feel and underground temps are different. I believe a snake will find a place of suitable temps all winter long. Even on warm days like we have here in South Texas they will even bask a little.
I found a Mexican milksnake Jan. 1st in 80 degree weather. It snowed Christmas day 6 inches here.....1st time ever and most in history here. Two days later I found a Southern Plains ratsnake that had a meal in its stomach.....it was 75 degrees that day. Temnps hit freezing days after this. These snakes are cold blooded ...they can move to the temperature they want.
And that is why we simulate a warm environment in our enclosures and a cooler environment as well.....just so our snakes can move to a comfortable temperature for digestion/metabolism......
Snakes will continue to breed the same every year in the wild.
And there is no global warming or green house effect. Look at the average temps of the US over the last 100 or so years and they are ACTUALLY cooler than it was then..........
Snakes will be snakes!
John Lassiter

I would have to agree with you, Tom. I think we will never figure out what God has set into motion, although I think He allows us a little freedom to experiment in our own little "gardens of Eden". I don't think the cooler than average temps down here will have an adverse effect on the numbers we will observe in the wild; actually, I've seen quite a bit more this year already than last year at this time. That could be due to the new places I've hit, but I hit known hotspots last year with a lesser result.
Just my dos centavos, Todd

Hey Todd, got any more pics of that snake? Can you repost a larger pic? Hopefully we'll be finding those guys left n right soon. Tom Stevens

Sorry,Tom, I only have a camera phone and it spits what it spits. I'll try to convince John to come over and do a complete workup on all my animals, or just break down and get a real digi. What kind of camera do you have, as your shots are awesome!
Todd

Just got a Sony Cybershot 4.1 mega pixel. Had an Olympus 1.3 before that. Both good but the Sony is worth the extra dinero. Tom Stevens

How much did that set you back, if you don't mind me asking? I have the capabilities and it would be great to post some pics of my collection, but handling a camera in the field is kinda scary to me for fear i would drop/break/lose it especially when making a grab. Some times I get carried away and actually lost my last camera phone after chasing some Northern cat eyed snakes off 77S. I got so excited seeing them for the first time, I didn't notice my phone fell out of my pocket and those were the only pictures I had of them. Dang! Now I got a carrier for the phone, but it sure is nice to have just my stick in hand and a water bottle in my back pocket and my camphone in pocket.
A Dios, Todd

I think my wife found it on sale for about 250. It came with a small memory card and rechargeable batteries and charger pack. I really like it a lot. Tom Stevens

>>I like to discuss this type of stuff to a degree because it was also a kooky winter in many other parts of the US. I heard more stories of snakes being caught in January this year than ever before. So to try n keep on topic lets hear what people think about the effect of this on reptiles which should be brumating during this season.

I'm interested in what's happening in other parts of the world too, especially places in the U.S. Here in Northern Michigan the warming days don't have much affect. Our coldest this year was (-31*F) with several days at (-20*), or less. We in fact hope for at least ave. snowfall to insulate the ground from getting frozen too deeply. In years the frost goes below 3 ft, or so, we have a sizeable dieoff of snakes and other things. The type of winter we have can have a large affect on how many animals survive to breed again. The humidity and amount of moisture left in the spring can have an affect also. If it is very dry you might not see as many snakes on the surface. Also, if it is very wet certain species don't like it and become inactive. They do respond to the conditions.

Several years ago we had a very nice warm spell in January. It got into the mid-50's for a couple days and melted most of the snow and ice on our property. I found snakes in January for the 1st time in Michigan. I even found one Eastern garter crawling across a snow bank, looking for a place to hide. It had gotten flushed from it's burrow along with numerous dead snakes that had drowned in their sleep. Although this warm spell only did harm to the snakes, some snakes are very opportunistic and will take advantage of early warm spells to bask. Other species will refuse to come to the surface or eat, etc, no matter what the conditions, until a certain time of the year. Then you will see them under all kinds of conditions.

>>In captivity many people try to keep things at what they feel to be an optimum temp of for example we'll say 55 degrees. I myself do not, and leave my snakes in my garage. I live in central Texas, and I saw many days this winter which were warmer than I would prefer but I take into consideration animals in nature deal with it fine,,,,,so my snakes should also do OK.

I understand it is difficult to brumate snakes in the Southern states. It isn't too hard for us in MI. Right now most of my adult snakes are still sleeping at a nice 50*F, steady. I usually keep them in brumation for a full four months, so don't like to vary the temp too much. For this long of a brumation I believe it's better to keep them at optimum, cool temps, and optimum humidity. Not all species need this much brumation though, or can even stand these conditions. Some of my snakes I keep in a different room where the temp varies and never gets below about 58*F. I also shorten the brumation. Juveniles I sometimes don't brumate at all.

I know a lot of folks brumate like you, Tom, and with some species that is fine. Some don't even need any brumation to be able to breed. But also, I would think you would shorten the brumation time from my four months to maybe two, or less.

Most people I know were excited to find snakes so early. Then again many times after unseasonably warm days temps would fall bigtime and we wonder how these animals cope? South TX actually had snow....and then 80 degree temps shortly after. I often said to people who strive for a perfect maintained temp of 55 something to the effect of " snakes in the wild simply can't all lay bad clutches this year due to warmer than average temps...can they?". So.....that is the question I propose.
>>Do any of us feel it indeed WILL have an effect on snakes in the wild and numbers of offspring produced....or will this year be like any other normal, colder winters...and have basically the same amount of production. I predict Kerby says we have no way of knowing LOL.....but still, I say it should not have too much of an effect.....what would you think? If I am way off topic from what you were getting at Ameron just say so and we'll take it from there. Tom Stevens

Tom, interesting questions and somewhat complicated answers. There has been discussion on this topic in the past, especially on the Corn Snake Forum, that I can remember. Snakes in the wild and in captivity should be discussed separately I think, but I'll make comments on both.

In the wild snakes have strategies to protect themselves from extremes of climate. Basically, the snow days and the 80*+ days didn't bother them because they can hang out below the surface, where in South Texas the temperature will remain around 55* at a certain depth. They can just keep on brumating.

Some snakes, however, are opportunistic. They will take advantage of the early warming conditions to get an early start on their seasons, or a breeding advantage, etc. John didn't say if his ratsnake that had eaten in Jan. was a male or not, but it could have been a male getting an early start to be first in line. It also could have cost him his life if caught shortly after eating by a cold spell, and the food rotted in the gut. That was an interesting case. I think s. TX is used to many warming days during winter, however, and spring starts very early on ave. You probably have many snakes that are programmed to take advantage of warm days and don't need hardly any brumation.

I keep GP ratsnakes from s. TX, btw. My snakes don't need much in the way of brumation, but I do brumate the adults, not like northern snakes, however.

I think global warming and other short term conditions will affect breeding with snakes in the wild. The weather in any particular year can change to provide a large range of conditions from good to bad for reproduction. The abundant rainfall, for instance, in the Southwest this winter will mean plenty of food resources and probably a banner crop of babies for most species.

In captivity conditions are regulated and can certainly affect the productivity and health of your snakes. It is also different for each species. Some snakes can handle large variation in brumating conditions and still produce, others cannot. I think we need to study each species we maintain as to what their needs are, and also, I think we should try to be aware of how external (in the wild) conditions can affect our animals and breeding programs.

Thanks for listening to my wanderings (just too much time on my hands..LOL).

Terry

I knew i should left more details after I read my original post but so you and everyone knows here's what I keep. Brooksi, MBKs, Thayeri, Southern Pines, Sonoran Gophers,Mexican Pines, Hondurans, Black Milks and Corns. Of all of these that I have bred so far the only one I have had trouble with is the Thayeri. I feel that if I do not have success with them this year I will sell them to my friend who is also in TX but has a much more stable, manageable brumation set up and does produce Thayeri. In other words I feel my collection will do just fine in the conditions I have because these particular snakes do not need a severe lengthy cooling. Others may disagree? However this was my goal.....to not deal with anything that needs special attention. I think if you work with a bunch of snakes that all can handle the same wintering your chances of ALL of them doing fine and producing are in your favor. I cool my snakes for 10-12 weeks and it is only roughly 4 of those weeks that are quite cold.I love Mt Kings but know they need colder, longer brumation so I chose not to deal with it.
I have no way to know what really goes on up north with the harsh winters, down here it be more likely to wonder about flooding or even moreso fire ants or the opposite...being drought. Things like this make me think that nature somehow tells animals that survive winters that many others do not live through that they need to double clutch. Like you mentioned some snakes seem to want to capitalize on any little thing they can to give them a head start on making it through a winter and breeding that spring. In a way it's almost comical how snake keepers worry about specifics....like for example if you had a set up maintaining 50 degree temps and you found out that while you were away for a few days it dropped to 40.....some of us would worry about that, while others would not. This is why I remind myself what these animals deal with in the wild. To sum it up the extremes they face is just something they deal with, and though it's different in captivity I still think we have much to learn as far as what is optimum for our captives. We sometimes mist snakes, yet become frustrated when a water bowl is spilled. Give them hot spots but worry they may get burned. Give them hide spots but wonder if they're OK when we don't see them LOL.
We know snakes go underground when it's hot but sometimes in TX we'll have a heat wave where it can even be 90 degrees at night for well over a week straight. I do not really get out into the field but I wonder if anyone has been keeping track of any populations of herps and seeing both good and bad years due to how harsh a winter is....and if they did indeed draw any conclusions leading us to think"this winter was brutal, I hope the local reptiles will not suffer to a point of noticeable decline". Or are they so tough that the majority do pull through under any type of winter........and simply have a tougher time getting back into to shape come spring time. I do not think we have an answer, but when thinking of this stuff it makes me worry less about my captives and their brumation set up. Seeing we're on the subject it's my guess the garter snake is probably the toughest snake when it comes to tolerance for extreme cold. I do not know much about Mt Kings, which I am sure are also extremely tough but Garters and maybe Water snakes in the northern US have to be tough,,,,,whenever i see a blizzard on the weather channel I think to myself...those poor snakes! Tom Stevens

I do not know much about Mt Kings, which I am sure are also extremely tough but Garters and maybe Water snakes in the northern US have to be tough,,,,,whenever i see a blizzard on the weather channel I think to myself...those poor snakes! Tom Stevens

LOL...Tom, they don't suffer from the blizzards. They are way underground. They only worry about the frost line and moisture content. I've seen three feet of snow on top of my ponds and ice to within a foot of the bottom and there are still plenty of herps in the spring. Northern herps are adapted to extreme cold...Southern herps aren't. You are right that the garters are the toughest. They go the farthest north and are the most opportunistic. The massasaugas and other rattlers go pretty far north, but our massasaugas are only active about 3-4 months.

I had a hard time understanding mtn. kings at first. Because they were pretty far south, in my reasoning, I thought they acted like other Southern snakes. But I've since found out how much the high elevations are like our Northern winters. Spending much time in se. AZ, because we're going to retire there, I've learned that the mtn. kings go into brumation early, like around Halloween. They don't seem to get very active until the end of March, at least. I suspect they brumate a good five months. Hard to believe, but probably thayeri and other mtn. dwellers from Mexico, have similar behaviors. This is one of the reasons I have a four month regimen for some of my species.

We really only have corn snakes in common in our collections. I've been into Old World ratsnakes for a long time and it still shows. One of the reasons I'm changing my collection towards kings, and others, is because I'll be living in AZ in a few more yrs, and that will change how I brumate my snakes, etc. I will have similar problems to what you have, Tom. I think the high desert has much colder nights and a longer winter, however. I should be able to brumate snakes for four months, if not quite at fifty deg. I understand why you choose the species you do and that they can produce with a mild brumation.

It must be tough not being able to keep the temps down sometimes though. I sometimes worry in the summer when temps get above 80*F. in my Herp Room. But it's not just the heat, it's also the humidity which is hard on them. Again, some snakes can handle more extremes and some can't. I chose my snakes mostly for their hardiness to the cold.

Tom, you've got some tough conditions in Texas with the heat, the fire ants, and the dryness, etc. I don't envy you having to deal with all of that. But the animals are adapted to deal with it, although I think the fire ants are probably wreaking havoc. There are always natural cycles and ups and downs in populations of animals, but they are tough and will come back. I think you've been having a mild winter this year and I don't think it will affect the numbers much at all. If TX has had good rains, the numbers will probably be up. The worry might be more that there hasn't been much cold weather.

I hope my comments aren't offensive at all. I certainly only mean to be helpful and add to the discussion. It's a really neat topic and I hope to learn more about the south from you Texas guys Thanks...

Terry

"LOL...Tom, they don't suffer from the blizzards. They are way underground"
I know Terry, I didn't think they were like" man it's wayyyyyyyy colder than last year" as they chattered their teeth LOL.
I admit I do not know much about temps below the surface...but that brings to mind a whole other slew of questions. Like for example when a snake does go underground,,,,,I wonder how capable they are of getting out of the place they spent the winter if the way got in was blocked afterwards. I have heard of Garters and Rattlesnakes congregating in huge groups to spend the winter in an ideal den site. Pics I have seen of Garters in those situations had easy access to get in and out, like in a cave. Not all snakes can be so lucky when chosing places to spend winter. Thus my lack of knowing how they cope. In the south it is much easier to understand. I mean even if a snake chose a lousy spot to spend the winter, I think chances are it will survive anyway. I feel the opposite for snakes in the north. If they do not have an ideal place to spend winter they very well may be doomed. Growing up in NJ i almost always found my first snakes by April 1st. Seeing that region of the US just got pounded by snow I wonder if it will delay things, or make them even more likely to get up and about as quickly as possible? In other words if the weather is kooky like it has been, and it is freezing with snow march 25th but 70 degrees April 1st, will the snakes from that area still be lagging due to the late freeze or do they not react. I know a few years it seemed snakes were nowhere to be found in early April.....wish I woulda paid more attention to what kind of winter came before those springs but I was just a kid and not concerned with these things yet. ttyl Tom Stevens

>>"LOL...Tom, they don't suffer from the blizzards. They are way underground"
>>I know Terry, I didn't think they were like" man it's wayyyyyyyy colder than last year" as they chattered their teeth LOL.
>>I admit I do not know much about temps below the surface...but that brings to mind a whole other slew of questions. Like for example when a snake does go underground,,,,,I wonder how capable they are of getting out of the place they spent the winter if the way got in was blocked afterwards. I have heard of Garters and Rattlesnakes congregating in huge groups to spend the winter in an ideal den site. Pics I have seen of Garters in those situations had easy access to get in and out, like in a cave. Not all snakes can be so lucky when chosing places to spend winter. Thus my lack of knowing how they cope. In the south it is much easier to understand. I mean even if a snake chose a lousy spot to spend the winter, I think chances are it will survive anyway. I feel the opposite for snakes in the north. If they do not have an ideal place to spend winter they very well may be doomed. Growing up in NJ i almost always found my first snakes by April 1st. Seeing that region of the US just got pounded by snow I wonder if it will delay things, or make them even more likely to get up and about as quickly as possible? In other words if the weather is kooky like it has been, and it is freezing with snow march 25th but 70 degrees April 1st, will the snakes from that area still be lagging due to the late freeze or do they not react. I know a few years it seemed snakes were nowhere to be found in early April.....wish I woulda paid more attention to what kind of winter came before those springs but I was just a kid and not concerned with these things yet. ttyl Tom Stevens

>>"LOL...Tom, they don't suffer from the blizzards. They are way underground"
>>I know Terry, I didn't think they were like" man it's wayyyyyyyy colder than last year" as they chattered their teeth LOL.

Hahaha...you mean you weren't thinking they could sense the global warming and were staying too close to the surface, only to get zapped by the first big blizzard!? Oh, drat, how could I be so wrong...LOL?

Tom, you have to forgive me for being so "one track-minded" when trying to do mental problem solving. I'm constantly accumulating info and trying to piece together my own answers to herp's nagging little problems. But I mean no harm and hope you can take me light-heartedly.

>>I admit I do not know much about temps below the surface...but that brings to mind a whole other slew of questions. Like for example when a snake does go underground,,,,,I wonder how capable they are of getting out of the place they spent the winter if the way got in was blocked afterwards. I have heard of Garters and Rattlesnakes congregating in huge groups to spend the winter in an ideal den site. Pics I have seen of Garters in those situations had easy access to get in and out, like in a cave. Not all snakes can be so lucky when chosing places to spend winter. Thus my lack of knowing how they cope. In the south it is much easier to understand. I mean even if a snake chose a lousy spot to spend the winter, I think chances are it will survive anyway. I feel the opposite for snakes in the north. If they do not have an ideal place to spend winter they very well may be doomed.

Tom, I probably am too serious about herps and field herping, but I've been studying them since I was a tiny little shaver. I can't help but dwell on what I've learned, but I hope to learn more by studying other areas eventually. You're right in saying a lot of herps are doomed because they don't chose their hibernating spots wisely. Snakes have many different strategies depending on species, climate, numbers, other local conditions, etc. For instance, some of the larger snakes like to brumate in old wells. That way they don't have to worry about dehydration or freezing, because they can always go deeper in the well. Even massasaugas have been know to use wells and two locations I have are in situations like that. Massasaugas, garters, and water snakes, among others, are also known to use crayfish and rodent burrows, and even hibernate submerged at times. Eastern milksnakes sometimes use rodent burrows and also foundations of old buildings, as they like rocks a lot, especially deep rock piles.

Probably baby snakes are most at risk. I've heard up to 99% of all babies die their first winter sometimes. Their instincts don't seem as strong and they are much more opportunistic than adults. They often don't go deep enough in the earth to survive frost. Between predation and killing cold, huge numbers of babies perish in Northern MI every year. When we have a mild winter, numbers can be very high in spring though. Snakes that do survive learn that winter can take a toll and they tend to hibernate deeper and longer. Very few old snakes, 5+ yrs, are found here, and they really are wiser and much less conspicuous.

Growing up in NJ i almost always found my first snakes by April 1st. Seeing that region of the US just got pounded by snow I wonder if it will delay things, or make them even more likely to get up and about as quickly as possible? In other words if the weather is kooky like it has been, and it is freezing with snow march 25th but 70 degrees April 1st, will the snakes from that area still be lagging due to the late freeze or do they not react. I know a few years it seemed snakes were nowhere to be found in early April.....wish I woulda paid more attention to what kind of winter came before those springs but I was just a kid and not concerned with these things yet. ttyl Tom Stevens

I've never herped in NJ before, but I'll try to answer based on what I know about MI and other areas. Usually the beginning of April is a good time for amphibians in n. MI. They normally come out before any reptiles. First the ice and snow melts. Then the frogs start to calling. April tends to have some nice days, like up to 60*F, or so, and also can change back to snow or freezing rain the next day. Only the really hardy, opportunistic reptiles take advantage of the warmest days, "normally". I've seen some exceptions though.

A couple years ago we had a big warm front come through around the end of April-beginning of May. It was so warm that it stayed warm at night and I found several water snakes foraging for calling frogs at night. This is nearly unheard of outside of summer in n. MI. That's opportunistic behavior.

Many species act according to time of year and other conditions, however, such as amt. of rainfall, along with other factors. They may not be opportunistic at all.

Back to your question about NJ, I believe if you went from a snowfall to a really warm day, some species would take advantage of the oppotunity, at least to bask awhile, and others would not. Let me tell you one more story.

This happened in the Upper Peninsula, however. I went to my brother's hunting camp in the western U.P. It was the first week of May and the weather was great, approaching 70*F. By the time I got there all the snow was gone and I was hoping to find a fox snake basking. First my brother wanted to plant some trees. But when we went to dig the holes we found the ground was frozen. Later it got to about 75* and we were in t-shirts and shorts, but we never saw a single snake. We measured the frost level to three feet deep in places. This is a true story. We don't go to camp before mid-May any more and I found that fox snakes rarely come out before about the third week of May.

Remember, there are other things that affect activity besides temperature, too many to go into here. I would say moisture content in the soil is a big factor though. I would love to hunt for herps in NJ in April after a snowstorm though. I think we would find plenty. I would also love to hunt in TX in the winter. Some herps are active under quite cool conditions, if the moisture is right. John finding a GP rat and a milksnake in January was no coincidence. The conditions must have been right for some activity. There's always a reason.

In MI we also have to worry about flooding. There are lots of streams, ponds, lakes, swamps, etc. Snakes that choose hibernating spots that are too low are often flooded in the spring. There are lots of vernal ponds that fill up with the spring melt. Sometimes flooding forces them to the surface where freezing can kill them if they aren't careful. There is normally very large turnover in our area. I see very few snakes for more than one year and I do i.d. some of them.

Sorry I'm so talkative today. Hope I'm not boring everyone to tears. I would like to know more about Texas, and other states, too. Tom, you said you only got about four weeks of cold weather. Does that mean that the rest of the winter snakes are not brumating? It seems strange. I can barely understand that outside of the tropics. I think maybe a lot depends on nighttime temps too. Maybe you are cold at night and it takes a while to warm up during the day. That way the soil could stay cool. At any rate, snakes being active almost year 'round seems far from normal. Colubrids are adapted to brumate. Feeding in December, January, or February seems abnormal to me and worth studying.

That's all for now. I better rest for awhile....haha.

Terry

Well when I was mentioning mild temps in TX of course everyone knows we're down south so it is quite warm if not hot most of the year. What I meant though was temps in my garage....which are 10 degrees warmer than outside keep my brumation mild for the most part. I try to put my snakes in there around thanksgiving. Just in estimates....I would say that for december it's in the 60s, more often low 60s. January is cooler with low 60s to mid 50s...and then feb has colder temps that gradually climb back towards 60. I did see a few nights oclder than 50...less than 7 days this year though. I keep them dark as much as possible and many do bed down in hides or under substrate but for example my Thayeri are active when other snakes are not. This year I put the males cage on a piece of cardboard right on the cement floor. It should have ben a good few degrees cooler for him, and the female was left with the rest of the colubrids. As I mentioned if I do not get anything from them this year I will sell them to someone who does well with Thayeri, and get myself another pair of something else...probably some more getula. Some day I want some Asian Rats and other snakes that will need more specifics than I do with my garage brumation, and I will do the work but for now I am concentrating on the easier side of the hobby. I am very happy with my collection, I am even to the point where I am over the "I really want this n that" phase. I have a lot of great animals that all do well in one room both during brumation and the rest of the year. I am not a field herper but still like to learn about things as they are in nature so I appreciate your input. Some breeders apparently do not cool their snakes below room temp and work with light cycles. I myself will not take that chance, especially seeing so far the simple system I use works out fine with me. I had no idea that some snakes brumate in moist conditions? That's crazy about the ground being so frozen in spring up north....how exactly do you measure things of that nature? Also.........what do you think happens when land is developed during winter and snakes are disturbed........are they basically screwed seeing the ground is so cold and hard or do you think they still may be lucky enough to find another place to bed down for the remainder of winter? I think they could survive down here....but unfortunately my area is being developed at an alarming rate and the number of D.O.R.s I see in my neighborhood has declined more and more over the course of 3 years.....its really a bummer. I hate to see the dead snakes....but not seeing any makes me wonder if the majority perished from all the new housing being built. At least during the months outside of winter they have the chance to flee[I'd like to think anyway], it's unfortunate so many uneducated people with no interest in snakes kill first and think about it later....I know some of these crews around here kill every snake they come across......ouch ttyl Tom Stevens

>>Well when I was mentioning mild temps in TX of course everyone knows we're down south so it is quite warm if not hot most of the year. What I meant though was temps in my garage....which are 10 degrees warmer than outside keep my brumation mild for the most part. I try to put my snakes in there around thanksgiving. Just in estimates....I would say that for december it's in the 60s, more often low 60s. January is cooler with low 60s to mid 50s...and then feb has colder temps that gradually climb back towards 60. I did see a few nights oclder than 50...less than 7 days this year though.

That sounds pretty good, Tom. Sounds like you've got a good three months where it's about 55-65*F, basically. That should be good enough to brumate just about anything. I try to feed my snakes until Thanksgiving, or in some cases, longer. By December the ground is starting to freeze outside and we have a big walk-in closet at the back of our house that stays in the 50's for the most part. By Christmas the ground is frozen at least a foot deep and the temp in the closet is near 50*F. Right now it's dipping slightly below 50, so I have to open the door a couple times a day to let in a little warm air. I weigh most of my snakes and they hardly loose a gram over the winter at these temps. I can't keep them in the garage during winter because it never gets above 30*F. there. It does stay in the 40-55* range through most of October/November though, if I need it.

I keep them dark as much as possible and many do bed down in hides or under substrate but for example my Thayeri are active when other snakes are not. This year I put the males cage on a piece of cardboard right on the cement floor. It should have ben a good few degrees cooler for him, and the female was left with the rest of the colubrids. As I mentioned if I do not get anything from them this year I will sell them to someone who does well with Thayeri, and get myself another pair of something else...probably some more getula. Some day I want some Asian Rats and other snakes that will need more specifics than I do with my garage brumation, and I will do the work but for now I am concentrating on the easier side of the hobby. I am very happy with my collection, I am even to the point where I am over the "I really want this n that" phase. I have a lot of great animals that all do well in one room both during brumation and the rest of the year.

That's too bad about the thayeri. Seems like your collection is doing great except for them. I just have one pair of thayeri, yearlings, and they are doing pretty good, so far. I'm brumating them at 60*F, for about two months right now. I don't have much experience with them, but hope they do well. I'll decrease the brumation temps (colder) and increas length each year and see how they do. I'd be surprised if 55-60* for 2-3 months wouldn't do the trick. I think you're smart to do your collection the way you do. It's working very well and you're having fun with it. That's one of my main priorities, to have fun, and I gear my collection that way.

I am not a field herper but still like to learn about things as they are in nature so I appreciate your input. Some breeders apparently do not cool their snakes below room temp and work with light cycles. I myself will not take that chance, especially seeing so far the simple system I use works out fine with me. I had no idea that some snakes brumate in moist conditions? That's crazy about the ground being so frozen in spring up north....how exactly do you measure things of that nature?

Thanks, Tom. I think I'd be a field herper/conservationist first, if I lived in a warmer climate. But our winters are long and for half the year playing with my collection is all I've got. I do like to cool my snakes, however. The break I get in the winter months, when I work the most, is appreciated. Also, I think it's very healthy for the snakes, especially once they are adult. They don't need those four months for growth and not brumating them takes time off of their lifespan, imo. I'm not interested in dbl. clutching either. Most snakes can probably produce for 15 yrs. with the proper care.

I brumate my snakes in total darkness. They normally go to sleep and hardly move all winter. I've seen Eastern kings crawl into a large jug of water and lay in the water for months at a time with no ill effects. ASAMOF, lack of water/humidity is probably more detrimental. My Mandarin ratsnakes, from China, sleep in a large jug full of damp sphagnum moss, and rarely come out even to drink. They really crave the moisture. Some snakes, of course, do not like moisture. My CA mtn. kings and milksnakes seem to do well w/o it.

The frozen ground is very difficult to measure. Sometimes I just take the word of a local climatologist. That time we were in da U.P. in May we used a pick ax to chip a hole in the ground and estimated the depth. When it's not below 3 ft. the snakes seem to do fine. Years that we get below 0* temps for weeks at a time, the frost usually gets a foot or more lower. One year about 7-8 yrs. ago, the ground froze to seven ft. deep. The towns around us had a terrible time with broken water mains, as well as houses connected to city water.

Also.........what do you think happens when land is developed during winter and snakes are disturbed........are they basically screwed seeing the ground is so cold and hard or do you think they still may be lucky enough to find another place to bed down for the remainder of winter? I think they could survive down here....but unfortunately my area is being developed at an alarming rate and the number of D.O.R.s I see in my neighborhood has declined more and more over the course of 3 years.....its really a bummer. I hate to see the dead snakes....but not seeing any makes me wonder if the majority perished from all the new housing being built. At least during the months outside of winter they have the chance to flee[I'd like to think anyway], it's unfortunate so many uneducated people with no interest in snakes kill first and think about it later....I know some of these crews around here kill every snake they come across......ouch ttyl Tom Stevens

It's probably very different here, Tom. The ground is so hard in winter that it doesn't matter what you're doing on top. Some folks even drive cars on frozen lakes here. I drive my car all over the property (20 acres), as long as the snow isn't too deep, and it doesn't harm the snakes at all. I cut trees, brush, walk on the ponds, etc, and basically reshape the habitat. But things I do are for the good of the herps, birds, and other creatures. Snakes like disturbed land and having the brush and other stuff cleared away. There are things they don't like though, such as clear-cuts, or putting in parking lots, malls, and other human structures, which basically cover them up and ends their existence. The rule I go by is, "If it improves habitat, the herps prosper. If it destroys habitat, the herps decline." Habitat is everything. No habitat...no snakes.

I hate to tell you this, but I think that development in winter in Texas is killing the herps same as development anywhere else. Loss of habitat = loss of animals. Where are they going to go even if they could flee? Other populations can only carry so many animals, so there's a limit. Also, if habitat gets too fragmented, and pops are too small, they will have a hard time staying genetically viable...in other words, they'll be too small to flourish. One of the biggest things going in herpetology today is the search for good habitat. Sort of the last great places. I believe that's what it's going to boil down to in the long run, is fewer and fewer places where good herps can be found. I know it sounds negative, but that's one reason I believe in captive management. Herps in captivity are better than no herps at all.

On that note I'm going to let you go and hope I didn't bum ya out. Thanks for the interesting conversation, Tom, and I welcome others to join in. Good luck with your projects and keep me posted how they're doing. Let me know if any questions or other cool info pops up.

Terry

Hey terry and Tom, not to worry, as I would be happy to report the south Texas field reports to ya as they come. Currently I keep Desert, specled, MBK, and prairie kings, bulls, Mex. milks, pueblans, Texas rats, southern plains rats,( got my eyes open for the mealhmoran? sp?, and eastern hogs. I've a few checkered garters and a few broad banded water snakes as well as a western massasauga that is headed for the Coastal Bend Zoological Gardens. I currently keep tabs on two Indigo brumation dens and will be mostly working Nueces, Aransas, Kleburg,Refugio, Goliad, Calhoun,Bee, San Patricio, and Jim Wells counties. I will be making two special trips this year for target species: first, a trip north to the Tyler area for holbrooki and a few racers, and second, my first real trip to alterna land for alterna, bairdi and suboc rats. I travel to the surrounding counties of Nueces to install hurricane shutters, and the travel allows me access to the valley as well, so I should be able to fit some pieces of the puzzle together for us all. I too love the mountain kings and look forward to owning one for its beauty alone. My boy scouts get into herps and it's a great way to get across some positive messages. Terry, are there any fox snakes where you are? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of one. Really great stuff, guys. A Dios!
Todd Hughes

Hi, Todd.

I do not live in fox snake country myself, as I'm inbetween the Western and Eastern ranges. We are located in Cheboygan Co (the Tip of the Mitt), the northern-most county in the Lower Peninsula. I do have a brother that lives in the Western U. P. and one that lives in Toledo, OH, as well as a friend that works in Toledo. So, I sometimes see pics from the U. P. or from nw. Ohio of Western or Eastern fox snakes. These are very cool snakes, but I don't like to keep them in captivity. They get quite large and thick, up to almost six feet, and they usually require a lengthy brumation.

Here's one my brothers found on the old railroad tracks in their hunting camp in the U. P. last summer...


I've seen a few of them there, but don't get up there very often. I've also seen a few DOR's.

The range of the Eastern fox is in se. MI and nw. OH. Occasionally I go to Toledo or other spots in OH and I've seen a few Easterns there. I've spent a little time in Ontario too, and I've seen them on Pelee Island and Pt. Pelee. I can't post any of those pics here, however. If you email me on that I might find something I could email back to ya.

Todd, you sure cover some good areas in s. TX. Can't wait to hear about your finds this year. I'm interested in a lot of different snakes from your area, mostly because I'm a field biologist (amateur), and just want to learn about them. One of the snakes I study the most in MI is the Eastern massasauga. I'm trying to find out more about the desert massasauga in se. AZ, too. Could you post a pic of your massasauga, or email me, and tell about how you came across it? I'd love to know where they occur in s. TX and how you found yours.

Thanks...and happy trails to you too!

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes