Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While in the Wednesday guest chat with Bill Love, the herp photographer, I thought it was interesting that of all the digital cameras to choose from, he choose the Sony DSC F828, for it's low light ability. That's the same camera I have. I highly recommend it.
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Lamar, Debbie, Nathaniel and Iggi :>~

>I thought it was interesting that of all the digital cameras to >choose from, he choose the Sony DSC F828, for it's low light >ability.

Bill has been taking great pictures since long before digital cameras were even thought up. I suspect it won't be long before Bill switches over to the benefits of a DSLR for his more important pictures.

There are lots of other painters who used the same types of brushes as Monet or Van Gogh. Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that your pictures aren't exemplary, just that the camera has a very limited influence on the quality of most herp shots.
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Chris Harrison

I think you would have to admit that the technology incorporated even in "point-and-shoot" cameras today allows many more people to take good photos than was formerly possible. I have seen many fantastic shots captured by folks who wouldn't know an f-stop from an ISO number -- even with relatively inexpensive digital cameras.

My first serious camera was a 35mm viewfinder type: it had no light meter (I quickly opted for a hand-held meter), you actually had to measure/estimate focus, manually set both aperture and shutter speed, and if you wanted to use flash or color, that entailed a whole different set of calculations. After a little experience, that camera took great shots for me but it certainly wasn't "point-and-shoot."

The modern cameras have allowed many more "technologically challenged" persons to express their artistic talents than was possible with the older cameras. As Martha would say, "that's a good thing." I certainly don't miss having to pull out the ole slide rule just to set up a shot!

By the way, concerning the low-light capabilities of the Sony cameras: I have the DSC F717, the predecessor of the 828. The Hyla cinerea below was shot on a dark night using the "night-framing" capacity of the camera. No additional light was used at all. My previous digital camera wouldn't even begin to focus under such conditions, even if the frog had been illuminated with a flashlight.

Tom Lott

Great shot! The Sony F717 is a good camera. Sony upped the resolution on the 828 to 8 Megapixels, put in a 4 color CCD (Red, Green, Blue, and Emerald), made the body swivel up 70 degrees, and made it take both Memory sticks, and type I and II Compact Flash cards. It is FAT 32 compliant, so the Seagate 5 Gig microdrive can be used. Sony seems to have a patent on the infrared framing and shooting, as I haven't seen them on any other cameras.
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Lamar, Debbie, Nathaniel and Iggi :>~

Having extolled the virtues of the upper-end of the Sony line, I would hesitate to say that it is the end-all for herp photography; it does have some problems (that may have been addressed on the 828 for all I know). Despite a great "macro" capability (and a great lens), shooting up close can involve problems: that big lens casts an equally big shadow, limiting the usefulness of the on-board flash. Also, on the 717 in "macro" mode, you pretty much have to use the auto-focus and, while it is good, it does not compare to being able to critically focus manually. There are a few other relatively minor complaints as well.

For me, though, this camera made me a believer in the digital format, where I was unconvinced by my previous experiences. I have also been impressed by the number of pro bird photographers -- whose equipment requirements far exceed those of herp photographers -- (including Arthur Morris) that have made the transition entirely to digital equipment.

The 717 is very simply fun to use and it has become the first camera I grab when I go out on a herp trip; I doubt that I have burned more than one roll of 35mm film in my Nikon N90s since I got the Sony. Having said that, however, I do have a lot of 35mm Nikon equipment that I would prefer to use in more controlled situations (longer lenses, "macro" flash, etc); I can feel myself gravitating toward a Nikon DSLR sometime in the future. When I do, though, I feel confident that I will hang onto the little Sony as a supplement.

Tom Lott

Bill is still taking good pictures with his film cameras now. He has a Sony DSC F828 on order. He doesn't have it yet. Is the Sony as versatile as a DSLR? Of course not! Can a DSLR frame and focus on a herp in total darkness? Of course not! It doesn't have the infrared framing and shooting capibilities of the Sony! Does the Sony have a lot of limitations that a herp photographer wouldn't like? No, or Bill (who probably makes more money than you or I), would not have ordered it. It's a 8 megapixel camera, with a 28-200mm zoom, that has a body that can swing up 70 degrees, for low level macro shots in total darkness. It also has a 4 color CCD, which produces amazing colors. I'm not saying that for other uses, like landscape or sports, that a DSLR can't do a better job. I'm saying that at this time, for HERP PHOTOGRAPHY, in my opinion, (and apparently Bill Love's, too), that the Sony can't be beat.
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Lamar, Debbie, Nathaniel and Iggi :>~

I'm saying that at this time, for HERP PHOTOGRAPHY, in my opinion, (and apparently Bill Love's, too), that the Sony can't be beat.

I actually looked at the Sony before I bought my DSLR and it was one of the cameras I considered. The infrared focusing is cool, and would be a fun thing to have.

However, the 828 is criticized by many experienced reviewers (see dpreview.com, for one example) for the fact that Sony packed 8mp into such a small sensor. The result is that this new sony produces a lot of noise and chromatic fringing. This is a common flaw in many point and shoot digitals (my old Olympus C-700 was bad about this as well) and was actually disappointing to many who were anxiously awaiting this new version of the very good 5MP predecessor.

There are several 8MP cameras out there for less or the same money that don't have these flaws. For example the new 8mp Canon 350 DSLR for about the same money as the 828. It has a sensor that is 3 times larger than the Sony and much better image quality.

I'm glad you are happy with yours, I'm sure Bill will be happy with his. And both of you will take some great photos with it which is what really counts. I'm glad I made a different decision. Everyone is happy. It certainly isn't anything personal.

As for why I chose a DSLR..... I now have a
- 100mm macro lens that can fill the frame with a dime from about 12 inches away
- a 400mm (effective 600mm) lens that I can fill the frame with a toad from 20 feet away or get nice distant shots of birds
- a 17mm (25mm effective) wide angle lens (very few P&S cameras go this wide)
- an adapter for my telescope, giving me a 1500mm lens
- an adapter for my microscope, allowing magnifications in excess of 1000x
- two wireless flashes that I can use off camera without a flash cable
and an almost unlimited possible number of other resources. P&S cameras just don't offer the options or ability to upgrade.

Mind you, I did shell out a lot more money for all of this stuff over the last 10 years, but if a new 16mp body comes out, I just need to buy that one thing and I am ready to go!

I'm not implying you shouldn't enjoy your camera, just that people should do some research and read some reviews before they jump in and buy an $800 camera. I'm sure Bill did and will be happy with his choice. If I thought it was the greatest herp photography camera available for the money, I would own one.

Just my opinion, but then, you know what they say about opinions.
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Chris Harrison

The infrared feature is a major reason for using this camera for low light/night shots. You can't photograph what you can't see. I have found only very slight chromatic abberation, and no noise below ISO 200. As far as a 16 Megapixel camera, Canon already has one on the market. Actually, it's 16.7 Megapixel.
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Lamar, Debbie, Nathaniel and Iggi :>~

>> I have found only very slight chromatic abberation, and no noise below ISO 200.

Noise below 200 ISO isn't really an accomplishment. The Canon 20D brags no noticeable noise at 1600 ISO and this standard is matched by several other DSLRs and nearly by some P&S cameras.

>>As far as a 16 Megapixel camera, Canon already has one on the market. Actually, it's 16.7 Megapixel.

Or you could shell out some real money for the 22MP Mamiya DSLR! Several makers have 16 MP cameras on the horizon.
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Chris Harrison

I am really tempted to rent one of these to try out the night / low-light capabilities.

I just don’t see myself being out on a dark night looking for herps without at least a small flashlight. Not only does it help me see where I’m going, I’ve found that shining a light in the eyes of frogs and such actually gets them to stay put for a while. It’s easy enough to frame and focus while the light is on them.

One thing I read about these cameras (which may or may not be still true) is that the quickest exposure available in “night” mode is 1/30th of a second. That’s relatively slow when talking shutter speeds, so I’m wondering if image sharpness would be compromised due to hand shake without camera support. Would you mind posting some hand held images taken in the dark with your Sony? If this camera is as good as it sounds for herp photography, I need to go pick one up ASAP!

Cheers,
WK

No, there is no limitation on the shutter speed at night. There are two ways to take photos in the dark. The first is to use "Night framing" Which uses infrared to see the herp, and then uses a laser pattern to focus, and then fires the flash for a color photograph. The second is called "night shot". It uses the infrared light to see the herp, and then runs the ISO up to 1600, and shoots a black and white picture without flash. I think you can override the ISO by taking the ISO off of AUTO. Anyway, most people don't want a black and white photo, so "Night Framing" is what most people would use. Now, about a sample shot. Well, even though I have extolled the virtues of the Sony as a herp photographer's camera, I'm not really a herp photographer. I'm a photographer who has a herp. My one photo I took to try out the night framing mode, is in my iguanas's bedroom, while she was asleep in bed. The only light was a small night light, as they have a paretial eye that is always open, and so strong lights bother them. Yes, we spoil our ig

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Lamar, Debbie, Nathaniel and Iggi :>~