Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone give me the complete story why FWC considers Mangroves "Venomous"? Has anyone ever challenged this? What makes a snake venomous in their eyes? Toxicity? Delivery System? I know I should contact FWC and try to get a answer first hand but I like to get some insight before I do.

I'll go out on a limb and say that most places with laws regarding venomous reptiles consider the boiga family venomous. Of course I only base this on a few states that I know of, and the province that I live in.

The definition of venomous is not the ability to kill people as many hot herps would have a hard time doing so. In my opinion, mangroves should still be treated as hot, and this is obviously the same opinion as the Florida government. If I was in your shoes I'd just be glad that Florida has a permit system as opposed to the all out bans that are much easier to put in place.

In a province that has had strict regulation on herp pets for a lot longer than any states have I am still a fan of the system. Be it there are a lot of animals that I'd like to keep, mangroves included, there are lots of other great herps to keep as pets. For the truely dedicated, there are always ways to keep the collection you desire. In my case, there is no permit system and you must go proffesional with a zoo if you want to keep these animals.

As late as the 1980's Mangroves were still being sold as "Non-venomous" though F&G had started enforcement on them years earlier.

The real enforcement started when an employee of a S. Florida chain of petshops was fired and took it upon himself to "get even". He went to F&G and informed them that Boigas, longnosed vinesnakes and certain other rearfanged species his ex-boss carried were indeed venomous.

That is why Mangroves and Vine snakes that were once common fare here in Florida are now much harder to obtain.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It's a catch 22 though. Granted their are alot of people who licenses down here, but just how many people are willing to let a total stranger ( or even somebody they know ) start interacting with thier hot collection? The liabilities involved put the majority of people off to having someone other than themselves work with them. I've looked into trying to find someone reasonably close to start building up my hours, but the ones that are willing are a few hours away, and the few that are close won't even let you come near their collection. Either they are afraid you'll get bit ( Rightfully so ), bring some type of bug to their collection, or come in at night and steal all thier animals. That puts me where? I want to work with Venomous reptiles, Boiga especially, but with the situation as it is, it's almost impossible. Sorry for getting off the subject of my original post. What if a proposal was brought up to FWC about a tier type system? A type of ranking that allows the "experienced" individuals to work with the more dangerous animals and the less experienced to work with the milder animals?

What part of Florida are you in?

In S. Fla we have a business that gives classes.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Central Florida - Brevard county

You have a herp society for that region (see KINGSNAKE club listings). They may know someone. Also try contacting the South eastern Hot Herp Society.

In North Broward County, UNDERGROUND REPTILES gives classes for licensing.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Contact Ray or Ricky and they may let you work or clean their reptile cages for your hours???? They are close to you about 1/2 hour south. Here is a link.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=40&de=288724

Here's the way the law works - the FWC is an administrative agency, tasked with implementing and enforcing laws in an area of law delegated to them by the FL legislature and by the FL constitution.

As with any administrative agency, the state legislature enacts general statutes, and the agency is tasked with creating rules that implement these statutes. There is a procedure by which agencies make rules, and it includes public hearings and notice to the public regarding these hearings. Members of the public are allowed to speak, but the agency doesn't have to give any weight to anything anyone says at these hearings, they just have to have them.

The FL statutes simply state that a permit is required to possess "venomous reptiles," but the statutes don't define what a "venomous reptile" is. Ordinarily that is something an agency would do - they would hold hearings, commission reports, and make a rule defining what an undefined term in a statute means.

To the best of my knowledge, the FWC has never defined the term in accordance with proper legal procedure, resulting in a published rule. I looked into this extensively when I was in law school and taking administrative law. As it stands, enforcement of the statute is left to FWC officer's judgment. They have some very good, knowledgeable people working for them and I've spoken with a few of them. They designate officers in the various regions for enforcing the venomous permits, and essentially whatever that officer says is venomous is venomous.

There is, or at least was when I was researching it, scant little case law in FL on the subject, and none of them challenged the agency rules, or lack thereof. I suspect that was because they dealt with unquestionably venomous snakes, that being native EDBs.

I was of the opinion that one could challenge enforcement of the law because it is vague and arbitrarily enforced ('arbitrary' in the legal sense, not to imply unprofessional on the part of the FWC). Hognesed snakes are OK, while other rear fanged are not, for example. Especially given the research Dr. Frye has published, there is truly a question as to what is 'venomous,' or at least what 'venomous' should mean as a legal standard.

But, seeing as how it would likely cost $8000 - $10000 in legal fees to challenge the law and the FWC, I suspect most people would rather just give up their snakes and pay the fine instead, so it's unlikely to be resolved, and whatever the FWC officers say is venomous will be, effectively, the rule.