Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone use the new Vision or Animal Plastics racks? I can't decide between the two. They are both 10 high and heated, but the Animal plastics is enclosed. They are both roughly the same price complete. What are the advantages/disadvantages to either the enclosed or open design? Also, what size adult snakes might I be able to keep in the 33 1/2 x 17 3/4 tubs ? I currently have a pair of Bullsnakes, Mexican Black Kings, Northern Pines, and a Western Hog.I'll probably trade the Bulls and Pines for something that will fit the rack. Thanks for any info.
Bill

I assume you're considering the CB-70 rack from AP since that is the only type of rack Vision offers (at least yet, more on that later). If so I don't see why you can't keep the bullsnakes and pinesnakes in there. The CB-70 boxes are pretty large.

So don't trade the snakes just yet.

I don't use either but have asked Vision to look into building a rack around the Iris box I use. Hope to hear back tomorrow. I believe it has the same lip as the CB-70 so I'm hoping it will work.

But comparing the two, I say Vision all the way. The Animal Plastics rack costs a bit less but come without the boxes. And I can tell you finding the CB-70 box and ordering won't be easy or cheap. And you'll have to pay additional shipping for the boxes.

So the Vision is effectively cheaper although you'd have to factor in the heat cable or heat tape on the Vision.

But put that aside, I still prefer the Vision. Unless AP racks have changed the type of plastic they use it's going to be a very heavy rack. At least twice as heavy as the Vision if not three times.

Also, the plastic used by AP is likely to sag. Not a huge issue if you keep Ball Pythons but it can be a security issue for the species you keep since they are very good escape artists.

The nice thing about the Vision or any rack that runs on track is that the gap is built around the lip of the box and not the height of the box. This is important and these boxes can vary quite a bit in height. Iris boxes, indcluding the CB-70, are my favorite boxes but they do have quality control issues when it comes to height. My boxes vary in height by 3/16"!

But the lip around the top of the box does not have these variances so you can count on a constant gap around the top of the box.

Or to explain it another way, let's say any regular rack was built with a 1/8" gap - the standard amount. With an Iris box this gap could be as much as 5/16" due to the variation in height. Again, not good for the species you keep or any species for that matter.

But since the Vision rack has tracks for the lips to run in this problem does not exist.

To be fair, I have not measured many CB-70 boxes so I don't know how bad they are. The CB-80's are pretty bad in that regard.

The bigger concern with the sagging is when it effects how the boxes slide open. This can be a major issue with plastic racks. Often the boxes drag a bit. Again this problem can be amplified if you have a taller than average box - something that happens with Iris.

The type of aluminum connectors and square tubing used by Vision have been used in industrial applications for decades and there simply won't be any sagging. If someting were to happen to the plastic cover on the Vision rack it would be very simple to replace. But it's riveted to the aluminum so I don't see what could happen.

I've extensively researched these components quite a bit to build my own racks and am very impressed with them. I even have samples. It's a great way to build a rack. Very expensive for the DIY-er but nice stuff.

Again, to be fair, I've not used either product.

BTW, if your major concern is that the Vision rack is not enclosed I would not worry about this. Vision has a thick, 3/4" PVC pad to increase thermal mass under the tubs.

If you're worried about insulation then cover the Vision rack in about $8 worth of Reflectix and it will be more efficient that any rack you've ever seen.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Thanks for all the info. Very informative. I was leaning toward the Vision anyway. I have friends that own a canvas shop and I figured I could get them to make me a cover. Someone else told me that they should work for my snakes, so thats great. Now all I have to figure out is what to fill the other trays with. Hmmm,
so many choices. Thanks again.
Bill

Don't make a canvas cover, use the Reflectix insulation instead or any other brand of foil/bubble insulation. It literally looks like bubble wrap covered in aluminum foil. Very good insulator for the radiant heat we use with herps.

But try the rack as is first, obviously.

As far as what to fill your rack with, don't overlook the larger NA Kingsnakes. Florida and Eastern/Chain Kingsnakes are among my favorites. The large NA ratsnakes as well.

For slightly more exotic versions of what you keep there are the Royal Diadem Ratsnakes and Malagasy Hognose.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Yeah, I'll try the rack alone first. I like the look of Mandarin Rats, but I think they are pretty expensive. And I don't know how big they get. I also like the Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons, but I think they need room to climb.

Mandarin rats are expensive but are neat snakes. An adult carpet python would need more room, no doubt. But you could raise one up in a Vision rack.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I just ordered the 10 high AP rack for my Gaigeae colony.( Ali was very nice to deal with). Lord willing, I will buy one of the Vision cb70 racks when they out grow the AP rack for many of the reasons you mentioned (light weight etc.)

I hope I don't have to worry too much about escapes. Theres not many snakes that are as big a security risk as milks in general. lol

I'm hoping to put the heavy rack on a dolly to make it easier to deal with.

Thanks Bob.

I understand all of Chris’s points, however I feel differently about which of these two systems is better. I would (and have) go with the AP rack.

As Chris said the price is a wash, or by my calculation AP is a bit cheaper, even after figuring in tubs, heat, etc. With the AP rack I get an incredible ambient heat gradient, whereas with the Visions you get more of a warm spot. True, you could cover your $800 rack with Styrofoam but why wouldn’t you just get an AP rack that already functions?

Another advantage of having an enclosed system, is that it is a more secure and calm environment for your herps. IMO the vision racks are only slightly better than an aquarium when it comes to providing a secure feeling environment.

Also, the way vision’s heat cable is routed worries me. If you look at the pics on their site you can see the heat cable is draped over the outside support bracket, stretching from one level to the next. This leaves the cable vulnerable to being nicked, snagged or even crushed; especially when moving the unit. Also, you will notice on visions web page they don’t show any pics of a rack with the heat installed except for close ups. I’m guessing that’s because the installed heat cable is not visually appealing and cheapens the look.

I have been using AP CB70 racks for a long time, and I can tell that sagging is not an issue, plain and simple. All tubs slide in and out without a problem. The fact that vision racks utilize a track is a nice feature but is also limiting in some ways… like for instance, with some AP racks, in one slot you can either use one large tub or two small tubs. This kind of dual use rack is not possible if you are using tracks.

If weight is an issue to you, then you may be happier with a vision rack. But honestly, how often are you going to be carrying your rack around? The other benefits of AP racks really make the weight issue (which really isn’t that bad) irrelevant.

Now with all that said… I’m sure either rack will work for you. I just think for the money you will be happier with an AP rack.

Best of luck

going to wait a while to put the 04' Black milks into the #1754 tubs and I would hopefully assume the 03's I have will be fine in the #1756s without escapes. I have no concern with the adult animals. Any thoughts?

I can see your point about the darkened hide box like feel of the black AP rack. The Black milks are a bit shy compared to other Milks I have worked with over the years and I've noticed mine like to keep an eye on things while being patially hidden in the rack unlike Nelsons that just display well in a large Neo draped over driftwood in the open. Thanks.

Yeah the price is a little cheaper with AP. I came up with 853.50 for the AP, and 890.00 for the Vision. Everything included, even shipping on the racks and the seperately purchased tubs for the AP. One other thing I noticed with the AP is that you can get a rack with the next size bigger tub for the same price. I think those tubs are 36 x 18 x 6. Don't know if the extra 53.37 square inches of floor space makes a difference or not. It would obviously make the rack a bit bigger and heavier as well. But I suppose if your going to get one , the snakes won't mind the extra room at no additional cost. Thanks for the opinions guys.

Also keep in mind how much it will cost to run the unit. An enclosed unit will use less electricity to maintain the same temps, which will in turn save you money.

Mark,

I understand your points as well...

>>As Chris said the price is a wash, or by my calculation AP is a bit cheaper, even after figuring in tubs, heat, etc.

That's interesting. What price are you factoring in for the CB-70 tubs and where are you getting them, LOL.

>>With the AP rack I get an incredible ambient heat gradient, whereas with the Visions you get more of a warm spot.

I can't really comment on that until I get my Vision (which I did go ahead and order). Even then there is no AP rack for the CB-80 to test so it really does not matter.

>>True, you could cover your $800 rack with Styrofoam...

I would not use styrofoam, I would use reflectix or another flexible foil-based insulation.

>> ...but why wouldn’t you just get an AP rack that already functions?

Because I can make the Vision rack perform even better than the AP with the Reflectix.

Again, note that I'm using a box that is 12" tall. This creates a huge area for heat to escape and the thermal mass advantages of a 1/2" thick plastic side are diminished. So in my case a reflective insulation will work better. I had no need to conduct similar tests on a 6" tall box so I really don't know how it would vary. Not enough for the weight penalty, IMO. More on that later.

>>The fact that vision racks utilize a track is a nice feature but is also limiting in some ways… like for instance, with some AP racks, in one slot you can either use one large tub or two small tubs.

Actually it is possible as there are other racks on the market with removable center tracks. Regardless, it does not apply to this thread unless AP makes a sideways CB-70 rack?

>>If weight is an issue to you, then you may be happier with a vision rack. But honestly, how often are you going to be carrying your rack around?

In my case fairly often as it will serve as a quarantine rack. I needed it to be more light and durable for those times I'm moving it to my main room or when I need to do a real thorough cleaning (common with quarantine cages). I also like that I can leave it outside and not worry about UV damage. I realize that is not normally a concern with a snake rack, LOL.

For me the decision was simple. I have never purchased a commercial reptile cage or rack because I could always build them for myself 1) better and/or 2) cheaper.

In the case of these aluminum components I can't do it better and I probably can't do it cheaper.

In the case of the AP racks I could build the same product 1) cheaper, 2) as good or better, and 3) lighter.

So again for me it was a no brainer, especially since I could duplicate and even improve all the characteristics of an enclosed rack with $8 worth of Reflectix that only weighs a few ounces.

If I weren't able to build my own racks I might feel differently.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

"That's interesting. What price are you factoring in for the CB-70 tubs and where are you getting them, LOL."

see link
Link

I did not want to take the time to fill out the full order to get a price quote.

Is it free shipping since it's store to store?

That's a great price.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

On 6/18/04 I ordered 12 of them for 10.14 each = $121.68. Plus 6.08 for tax = $127.76 total. The shipment arrived 3 days later on the 21st.

By the way, the office depot link is provided on the AP site where the rack is advertised.

any order over $50 from officedepot is free shipping.. even if its to your HOME.. not store to store..

i ordered 50 of them.. and i couldnt be more pleased!

They seem to be a standard of sorts on different sites.Should I assume they are better than the Sterlite 1960 and the Rubbermaid equivalent of around the same dimensions?

Too Big to be practical?

The CB-70 is a higher quality container than the 1960, I believe it also has more floor space than the 1960 as well.

I think my favorite tub is the larger tub from the container store, the identification number on their site is 10008765. It is basically 36x18x6. It is a little higher prices than the CB-70 ($15.99), but the box is more square and very sturdy.

Here is the link to the order page for the 10008765 box from the container store

http://www.thecontainerstore.com/browse/Product.jhtml?PRODID=61110&CATID=175

Thanks,
Mark Mertens

They really are better. They have that grid on the outside bottom and a heaver reinforced rim that allows for excellent rigidity. The grid on the outside also means a completely smooth surface on the inside. No grooves, etc. for feces/urates to stick in. Evidently the plastic is also treated in a way that happens to make them easier to clean.

The 110 is also a nice box but a bit big to be practical. Mostly because you waste a lot more material to build a rack that provides just a bit more floor area over the 70. It also runs on individual raised feet which means they don't slide as well in rack systems.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe the floor area of the 110 is not proportionate to it's size. So if it's 6" longer than the 70, the actual floor length is not 6" longer.

I also believe it's not as deep as the 70 due to some differences in the lid and the feet on the bottom.

I have all the measurements somewhere. I'll see if I can find them.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

being able to use this site to speak to people "in the know". It's alot easier and less expensive to run things past people with experience than to try to dog it out yourself. I very much appreciate it. Good nite

“Even then there is no AP rack for the CB-80 to test so it really does not matter.”

Don’t know for sure, but would bet they got one coming. In fact they probably have more racks style available then any other manufacture.

“I would not use styrofoam, I would use reflectix or another flexible foil-based insulation.”

What ever you use, I agree will likely work. I just don’t like the idea of having to do it (just personal preference).

What is your thought on the heat cable hanging outside of the rack on the vision system? It seems like they could of found a safer way to rout it.

>>What is your thought on the heat cable hanging outside of the rack on the vision system? It seems like they could of found a safer way to rout it.

I've not used heat cable I have seen it and it appears to be pretty stout. I don't remember which product, though. Remember it's designed to be sunk in mortar and placed in subfloors so it's pretty durable. It has to be to withstand all the subcontractors who work around it and don't have any interest in whether it works or not.

I assume Vision uses a similar product but I have not asked.

I certainly trust it exposed more than flexwatt. Given all of my racks are backless it is a concern I've already considered.

I'll know more when I get the rack. I don't have any reason to set it up right away but may do that if I have time.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

“BTW, if your major concern is that the Vision rack is not enclosed I would not worry about this. Vision has a thick, 3/4" PVC pad to increase thermal mass under the tubs.”

“This creates a huge area for heat to escape and the thermal mass advantages of a 1/2" thick plastic side are diminished.”

I’m kind of confused… first you say the thermal mass of the vision rack (which isn’t much) is a benefit. So I would think that a unit that has a tremendous amount more thermal mass would be better. Why would the advantages of 1/2" thick plastic diminish if you are using a taller tub? Forgetting about modifying the rack with Reflectix for a moment… wouldn’t an AP rack out perform a Vision because of the thermal values of what it is constructed out of? And couldn’t both Vision and AP racks be just as easily be covered with Reflectix?

>>If weight is an issue to you, then you may be happier with a vision rack. But honestly, how often are you going to be carrying your rack around?
”In my case fairly often as it will serve as a quarantine rack. I needed it to be more light and durable for those times I'm moving it to my main room”

Would you actually carry your Vision rack or do you mean you would push it around? It looks like the vision rack would fall apart if you tried to pick it up. Isn’t each level just stacked on the other?

>>I’m kind of confused… first you say the thermal mass of the vision rack (which isn’t much) is a benefit.

>>So I would think that a unit that has a tremendous amount more thermal mass would be better.

There is a point of diminishing returns when taking advantage of thermal mass. If there weren't then homes heated with radiant energy wouldn't have any insulation. But, of course, they do.

>>Why would the advantages of 1/2" thick plastic diminish if you are using a taller tub?

Because the heat will migrate out of the plastic before traveling up the 12" height. Especially when comparing thick, dense plastics. Regarding the front of the boxes, the temps are there are always an issue with longer boxes. The only way to deal with that is extra heating underneath but this tends to reduce thermal gradiants too much. PVCX shelves are slightly better than other plastics, however.

The best way, of course, is to increase thermal mass inside of the tub. And that's something that holds true regardless of the rack being used.

So yes, the AP rack does have greater thermal mass than the Vision. But for MY rack which used 12" tall tubs the benefits of thermal mass are diminished - there is a tradeoff. The AP rack would certainly be overkill for thermal mass as the heat would not travel up the sides very well and most would escape out of the front.

So the opposing question is wheather or not the PVCX pad underneath the tubs on the Vision rack is enough. That remains to be seen.

Again, ultimately the benefits of thermal mass in snake racks are greatest inside of the tub. That has nothing to do with either design.

>>Forgetting about modifying the rack with Reflectix for a moment… wouldn’t an AP rack out perform a Vision because of the thermal values of what it is constructed out of?

That's an interesting question. In my opinion the correct way to address this would be comparing the two with appropriate amounts of thermal mass inside of the tubs of each. If we compared with the typical sterile setups of most breeders (newspaper, small hide, and thin water bowl) then I would guess the AP would be better. But that's not exactly a fair comparison.

>>And couldn’t both Vision and AP racks be just as easily be covered with Reflectix?

Or course, but what does that have to do with the tradeoffs being addressed? I only commented on that as a way of keeping a rack that is both light and having outstanding insulation.

>>Would you actually carry your Vision rack or do you mean you would push it around?

To get from my quarantine room to my main snake room requires carrying. At the very least I'm glad to have the weight savings for getting over the step down into my garage and up into my snake room.

>>It looks like the vision rack would fall apart if you tried to pick it up.

I have not seen or used the nylon tubing connectors Vision is using. I am quite familiar with the commercial versions from other applications, however. From my experience with the commericially available connectors the friction fit is as strong or stronger than the weight the completed unit can hold.

As you probably know there are two other companies building racks from aluminum and nylon connectors. Just the standard commercial products. Most herpers aren't aware of these companies because they don't need to advertise in order to sell product - they're making a killing already. Regardless, I've had several zoo references on these racks and they're supposed to be awesome. I could have easily purchased my rack from either of them if they had extrusions for the Iris boxes and weren't so darn busy, LOL.

>>Isn’t each level just stacked on the other?

No idea how Vision address this. I did make my order with comfort, though, from my experience with these connectors.

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

“There is a point of diminishing returns when taking advantage of thermal mass. If there weren't then homes heated with radiant energy wouldn't have any insulation. But, of course, they do.”

I understand this, but my point is that the PVCX acts as an insulator itself. At least more so than nothing, which is what the Vision rack offers. (Again, I understand that you can additionally insulate any rack, but I am comparing one to the other without modification.)

“Because the heat will migrate out of the plastic before traveling up the 12" height. Especially when comparing thick, dense plastics”

“So yes, the AP rack does have greater thermal mass than the Vision. But for MY rack which used 12" tall tubs the benefits of thermal mass are diminished - there is a tradeoff. The AP rack would certainly be overkill for thermal mass as the heat would not travel up the sides very well and most would escape out of the front.”

Are you taking into consideration that the heat cable is embedded into side wall of the unit as it travels from one shelf to the next? Wouldn’t this create a beneficial thermal mass on the side of the unit just as it would under the tub? Also there would be heat radiating down from the shelf above each tub.

“If we compared with the typical sterile setups of most breeders (newspaper, small hide, and thin water bowl) then I would guess the AP would be better. But that's not exactly a fair comparison.”

I think that is the fairest comparison, because as you said it’s the “setups of most breeders”

By the way, please don’t think I’m arguing with you. I enjoy these kinds of technical discussions.

>>I understand this, but my point is that the PVCX acts as an insulator itself.

Anything with good thermal mass properties has insulative properties. But you still need thermal mass, but it needs to be in the right place. Concrete has excellent thermal mass but you still want to insulate the walls and floor of your home (well, except in locations where the ouside temperature flucates slightly above and below desired indoor temps, but I won't go there).

>>At least more so than nothing, which is what the Vision rack offers. (Again, I understand that you can additionally insulate any rack, but I am comparing one to the other without modification.)

Right, but again I'm saying that you can insulate the Vision and maintain it's light weight. And since there is no plastic for the heat to travel through the reflective aspects of the insulation can be maximized.

So in that regard, you can more easily insulate the Vision than you can other racks.

>>“Because the heat will migrate out of the plastic before traveling up the 12" height.

>>Are you taking into consideration that the heat cable is embedded into side wall of the unit as it travels from one shelf to the next? Wouldn’t this create a beneficial thermal mass on the side of the unit just as it would under the tub?

This would be a trivial effect, especially with longer boxes.

>>Also there would be heat radiating down from the shelf above each tub.

This would hold true in the Visions as well.

>>“If we compared with the typical sterile setups of most breeders (newspaper, small hide, and thin water bowl) then I would guess the AP would be better. But that's not exactly a fair comparison.”

>>I think that is the fairest comparison, because as you said it’s the “setups of most breeders”

Well if we extended my argument the typical setup of most breeders would also include a room with decent ambient temperatures. So the more open design of the Vision rack would cool down more quickly for night time temperature drops and heat up more quickly in the AM.

Which would result in more net work of the racks heating system itself is not a straight-forward question.

>>By the way, please don’t think I’m arguing with you. I enjoy these kinds of technical discussions.

So do I

BTW, I've always applauded AP for their efforts to make an easy to assemble product that overcomes shipping regulations. On a per level basis their racks are one of the better ones, at least in the smaller sizes.

Just understand their product does not offer any advantage for me. I hope I make that clear in any post.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)