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A little HELP needed from a newbie.... LONG Post.....

krystal19_85 Jul 08, 2003 02:09 PM

I am in no way new to reptiles! I have kept wild garter snakes, frogs, toads, ect... since I was like 3 years old, I even raised some tad poles into frogs now and then. I have recently been studying Ball Pyhtons and Leopard Geckos. I have owned Ball Pythons, and plan on breeding them next season. I will also be getting my first Leos next season and probably breeding them too. So I am not new to reptiles in general, but Crocodilians are new to me all together! I have never done any research on them so forgive me if I say something that just makes you laugh. I am thinking of getting SOME KIND of Crocodilian, but I am unsure of what care requirements they need, or really anything for that matter, I want to learn as much as possible and maybe I will be a proud owner someday! I would REALLY like for some posts with basically a care sheet and even some pics would be nice! If you can help me out with some info on your FAVORITE Crocodilian and some pictures if you have them, that would be AWESOME! The information on the top of my list is the following:

1. Size when full grown
2. What type of habitat do they origionate from?
3. What would the enclosure have to consist of (ie. land/water ratio, plants?, Temperature and humidity, ect...)
4. Temperment
5. Feeding requirements

And of course as I have said 10 times already, PICTURES if possible!

Thanks in advance for all the help and I am looking forward to any and all responses!
-----
~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

Replies (11)

Bill Moss Jul 08, 2003 03:52 PM

First, read the Crocodilian Care FAQ crocodilian.com - linked at the top of this page. That will answer 99% of your questions. crocodilian.com also has a lot of other resources you will be interested in, including photos, descriptions including size, and range maps. Pay particular attention to the dwarf caimans as they are a smallish species.

Ask more questions after you have consumed that information.

Bill

BrianSmith Jul 08, 2003 04:18 PM

Many say that crocodilians are hard to keep. I am not one of those. I have had alligators and caimans since I was a small boy of about 9 or 10. Of course I started with small babies (at 15 I "inherited" large adults) and in the time it took them to grow to any considerable size I also grew and was able to still handle them with comparative ease. Even the much more aggressive caimans I had (I no longer keep caimans) could be handled and moved without too much difficulty. But this is only because of two main things; I knew what I was doing as I had learned a lot as we grew together, and I have never been afraid of getting bitten. I would never suggest to anyone to get any animal that they fear. There's something about fear that makes one make serious mistakes. But yes, I have been ripped wide open many times over the years. More times from feeding mishaps than from aggressive animals as I choose to get in close and personal and hand-feed my babies. I have never gone to any hospital for stitches, I always just let the wounds heal on their own. A few times with more serious tears I have had to make my own stitches of sorts by crazy glueing plastic tie-wrap strips across my wounds to keep them closed until they began to re-attach. I should have taken pictures, but I never did. I have a few "incidents" on video though and they are always a kick to watch in super slow-mo. But I have a lot of really neat scars .

Anyway,... I got carried away there. Back to your questions:

It's ironic, but the best crocodilian to have as a first crocodilian pet happens to be one of the largest species. The American alligators when raised right and treated well make incredibly docile and sometimes even personable pets. "Only children" gators turn out the best as they really don't know that they are any different than you and they can bond to you better. But I really don't know if this would be the same under conditions of confinement. I have never kept any of mine confined to a cage or tank. But in any case it should take anywhere from 6 to 10 years under optimum conditions for a baby gator to become any considerable length. And even then they won't attain the more massive adult girth for another 5 to 10 years. (the "frame" of a young gator is very thin compared to an adult, so more easily managed). So my point is that there is ample time to "grow" with your gator and to learn what you need to learn in order to care for a large gater,.. as it grows. Do you see my point? But please do not get any gator or other crocodilian species unless you are willing to devote your ENTIRE life to keeping them and caring for them. If you can't see yourself walking out with a bowl of food for them when you are 70, then this is not the pet for you. Books may say gators live 40 to 50 years, but I estimate that they live much longer. I have several over 53 years old that are just as spry and active as they were 30 years ago. And they have clear vision and all their teeth. In other words there is zero signs of advanced age. In other words, they have a LOT more life left. I would venture to estimate that they will live another 30 to 50 years and will easily outlive me. This is why my last Will and Testament is entirely centered around their care and welfare after I am long gone. But there is no need to go into that. The point is, it's not cool to get a pet and then sell it to the highest bidder in 5 years when you are tired of it. And I feel that crocodilians as such a magnificent and primative animal form deserve our respect and dedication more than say a goldfish would. Not to bag on goldfish, I love them too. But unlike a gator, they can't look at you and understand you and have thoughts about you. I personally think that alligators have a higher intelligence and can actually form an opinion about you to a certain extent. Sure they are often indifferent,.. but sometimes they are not, and that is pretty cool. Sometimes even as I am typing here on the computer, I have an incredible 6 foot indoor female that goes beyond the definition of "tame", and she will often waddle up to me and lay her head on my bare foot to be near me. She usually gives me the double, deep-base "greeting" grunt to say hi and to tell me that it's her. She knows it's "Me" and wants to be near me and even touching me and I think it's the coolest thing. But understand also that she is the exception to the rule. Most gators couldn't care less if they were near you and would rather be away from you unless you had food for them. But if you raise a baby from a hatchling,.. and if you spend a LOT of time with it daily,... this can be your scenario.

Anyhow,.. there really is no easy way to sum up the keeping of an alligator or caiman. While it is much easier than most reptile pets to keep and care for, it is still a very deep and involved experience that cannot be summed up with cage requirements and reccomended diets. There is more to it in the sense that there is a LOT more to understand. As a higher lifeform it is our responsibility to understand them and exactly how they are and what they are. Their care may be simple,. but they are very complex. Help me out here Bill, try to explain this for me. I feel that I am doing a horible job at it.

Feel free to email me any time. I will share any information and even pictures (never to be posted here or anywhere please).

>>I am in no way new to reptiles! I have kept wild garter snakes, frogs, toads, ect... since I was like 3 years old, I even raised some tad poles into frogs now and then. I have recently been studying Ball Pyhtons and Leopard Geckos. I have owned Ball Pythons, and plan on breeding them next season. I will also be getting my first Leos next season and probably breeding them too. So I am not new to reptiles in general, but Crocodilians are new to me all together! I have never done any research on them so forgive me if I say something that just makes you laugh. I am thinking of getting SOME KIND of Crocodilian, but I am unsure of what care requirements they need, or really anything for that matter, I want to learn as much as possible and maybe I will be a proud owner someday! I would REALLY like for some posts with basically a care sheet and even some pics would be nice! If you can help me out with some info on your FAVORITE Crocodilian and some pictures if you have them, that would be AWESOME! The information on the top of my list is the following:
>>
>>1. Size when full grown
>>2. What type of habitat do they origionate from?
>>3. What would the enclosure have to consist of (ie. land/water ratio, plants?, Temperature and humidity, ect...)
>>4. Temperment
>>5. Feeding requirements
>>
>>And of course as I have said 10 times already, PICTURES if possible!
>>
>>Thanks in advance for all the help and I am looking forward to any and all responses!
>>-----
>> ~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

krystal19_85 Jul 08, 2003 06:45 PM

Your post just made me want them more! LOL The "...with a food bowl when your 70..." statement was so unreal! I always tell people I will be 90 with a ball python wrapped around my walker! I will never ever ever stop caring for reptiles! I LOVE them! (Check out the ball python forum for my post "not a ball I know, but what is it?" for the new addition to my herp family) I have always been and always will be facinated wirth all herps! The only reason I was thinking caiman over aligator is feeding requirements. I REALLY like the aligators, my friend had one and I thought it was tthe cutest! I was going to build a pond and fence in some of my yard for whatever I end up with, but I live in Michigan and it gets below 0 degrees here in the winter. I am thinking of moving south, but I won't be able to do that for some time now. My boyfriend insists on Missouri since that is where he is from and his family is there, would that be sufficient? I might, but I want to be able to keep whatever I please. I will have to look into laws there and make sure all my reptiles are leagle there ( and the ones I plan on getting). Thanks again for all the info and can you brief me on the feeding requirements of an aligator? I Really REALLY want one, but I don't want to have to give it up because I can't feed it! Thanks again!
-----
~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

BrianSmith Jul 08, 2003 06:49 PM

Thank you. Take the time to drop me an email. I have a few ideas that may appeal to you. BrianSmithReptiles@hotmail.com

>>Your post just made me want them more! LOL The "...with a food bowl when your 70..." statement was so unreal! I always tell people I will be 90 with a ball python wrapped around my walker! I will never ever ever stop caring for reptiles! I LOVE them! (Check out the ball python forum for my post "not a ball I know, but what is it?" for the new addition to my herp family) I have always been and always will be facinated wirth all herps! The only reason I was thinking caiman over aligator is feeding requirements. I REALLY like the aligators, my friend had one and I thought it was tthe cutest! I was going to build a pond and fence in some of my yard for whatever I end up with, but I live in Michigan and it gets below 0 degrees here in the winter. I am thinking of moving south, but I won't be able to do that for some time now. My boyfriend insists on Missouri since that is where he is from and his family is there, would that be sufficient? I might, but I want to be able to keep whatever I please. I will have to look into laws there and make sure all my reptiles are leagle there ( and the ones I plan on getting). Thanks again for all the info and can you brief me on the feeding requirements of an aligator? I Really REALLY want one, but I don't want to have to give it up because I can't feed it! Thanks again!
>>-----
>> ~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

RobnGravez Jul 08, 2003 11:07 PM

This is a little off topic so I apologize... I live in St. Louis, MO and the winters here are brutal. You could not keep a croc outside year round and expect it to live without some form of greenhouse. Also the laws on ALL herps in this city/state are really messed up. Depending on what part of MO you move to, IF you move here, there is a good chance that you will have to get rid of your ball pythons let alone be able to keep a croc. In some parts you need a permit to keep an animal over three feet in length and others do not allow "exotic" pets at all. Just some fair warning. Good Luck

krystal19_85 Jul 09, 2003 09:04 AM

I guess we will just have to skip out on Missouri! It would be a hard decision if I had to choose between the BF and BPs! LOL I think if I had to get rid of 1 animal I woulden't move there. I am at a stand still as far as where I am going, but I know I want to LEAVE this darn hell hole! LOL I swear if I found a group of 5 herpers here I would have a heart-a-choke (don't ask, family joke).
-----
~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

BrianSmith Jul 09, 2003 01:54 PM

Yeah, I've heard the Ball Python Vice Squad will kick down your door and take your snakes over there. No,.. come on,... you just don't tell anyone you have them. Jeez! It's like Martin Luther King said, (and I'm paraphrasing here, so forgive the forgotten words) "It is our duty to obey just laws, just as it is our duty to disobey unjust laws." I believe this wholeheartedly, and most especially where the laws concerning keeping reptiles are concerned. I think that there are WAY too many anti-reptile laws, and there are still many more to come. I think it's wrong. Oftentimes when something is confiscated from a good experienced herper due to an existing law, it is either placed in an overcrowded storage facility or is destroyed due to lack of funds to care for it properly. This is better than leaving it in the hands of a caring, experienced reptile keeper/lover? I don't think so!

>>I guess we will just have to skip out on Missouri! It would be a hard decision if I had to choose between the BF and BPs! LOL I think if I had to get rid of 1 animal I woulden't move there. I am at a stand still as far as where I am going, but I know I want to LEAVE this darn hell hole! LOL I swear if I found a group of 5 herpers here I would have a heart-a-choke (don't ask, family joke).
>>-----
>> ~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

krystal19_85 Jul 09, 2003 03:06 PM

I totally agree, but I do have a temper and I think if I was found out and my animals were taken I would get myself in some big trouble. Also I was in missouri last winter and it was snowing, still too cold for a gator.
-----
~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

RobnGravez Jul 09, 2003 09:48 PM

They won't "kick down your door" but they will destroy your animals, lock you up and fine you. Also, this is my opinion, it's ok if you want to break the law or don't care if others break the law but it is irresponsible to tell others to break the law. Even if you are MLK. I know you're thinking just don't tell anyone. Well what happens if your croc or large burm etc. becomes ill and you want to take it to the vet. If the animal is beyond the legal length or an illegal species you will be asked to produce the proper permits for the animals. Sure most herp laws are stupid but the more people that get caught breaking them, the worse the laws become...

BrianSmith Jul 10, 2003 02:35 AM

,... just as I am entitled to my opinion. And I personally see no harm in someone sneaking a couple of pet 3 foot ball pythons. I wasn't telling her to go acquire saltwater crocodiles and keep them in her garage, lol. Jeez, talk about exageration.

>>They won't "kick down your door" but they will destroy your animals, lock you up and fine you. Also, this is my opinion, it's ok if you want to break the law or don't care if others break the law but it is irresponsible to tell others to break the law. Even if you are MLK. I know you're thinking just don't tell anyone. Well what happens if your croc or large burm etc. becomes ill and you want to take it to the vet. If the animal is beyond the legal length or an illegal species you will be asked to produce the proper permits for the animals. Sure most herp laws are stupid but the more people that get caught breaking them, the worse the laws become...
-----
It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Systems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

psilocybe Jul 16, 2003 12:53 PM

Um, for one, in most states there are severe restrictions on keeping any crocodillian. In some states, it's in the form of obtaining a rehabilitators license, or some license to that effect. Second, most croccodillians exceed 6ft in length, and even the smaller ones (caimens) can be terrifying captives, and are generally quite snap-happy. The housing requirements usually require a full room or outside enclosure...with a pond, etc...considering you'd have to keep the pond clean in a captive enviornment, this would employ pump systems, drain systems etc, which can be quite expensive. Third, if your experience with herps is limited to garter snakes and ball pythons, it is not wise to make the jump into crocodilians. I would suggest keeping a large monitor lizard (water monitor or a nile monitor for temperment training) and see how you fair with that first. This is not encouragement to run out and get a monitor though because those can be an enormous responsibility as well...do more research and this will all become clear to you.

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