Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recent post Has lead to think... Hybino Brooksi, are they around?

Has anyone successfully produced a Hybino Brooksi?

Hypo is reduced black pigment

Albino the complete absents of black pigment

So what if the genes are too closely related to be expressed simultaneously?

do you think it's possible?

X

=
Have no clue?!

~ZF

It can't be hypomelanistic if it's amelanistic. However, it CAN be amelanistic and hypo for one (or both) of the other pigments, giving it a reduce-pattern appearance. That's just my speculation though based off of how hybinos are produced with leopard geckos.
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chickabowwow

>>It can't be hypomelanistic if it's amelanistic. However, it CAN be amelanistic and hypo for one (or both) of the other pigments, giving it a reduce-pattern appearance.

if there's a mutation called hypomelanistic, and there's another morph called amelanistic, if you breed properly and produce an animal that is homozygous for both the hypo and the amel traits, then yes, it CAN be hypomelanistic and amelanistic. I think you're confusing simple, general descriptive terms with the "names" of morphs (which are also usually--and preferably--descriptive).

the question is whether or not an animal that is amel AND hypo is going to look different from an animal that is "only" amel==that is, once the melanin's "eliminated" how can the REDUCTION of melanin be expressed. But remember, there's a diff between how it affects the looks, and whether or not the animal IS a hypo.

also, in the example you gave of an animal that's amel and hypo for one of the other pigments--the erythrins would be the only other choice, right?--can you explain how that would alter the pattern, create a "reduced pattern" rather than merely altering a second color? I got lost there.

peace
terry

i had mentioned this hybino ? to Terry b4 .i think one point is that the hypo also has reduced "black area "not just reduced black color. more Do Lavs = T , or maybe T is an exteme Hypo mel. true albinos= Amelanistic are T- w/NO black or gray. lets hear more on the tyrosinaise(spell?) subject.Chris

Ummm? interesting... Various levels of hypomenalism, expressed in slightly varied manner, logical to me.

So the question would be (for the individual pay'n attention): when you breed a hypo to a lavender,why are all the offpring normal (2x het for both traits)?

i have yet to attempt 2xhet-2xhet hybino breeding, but i assume the out come would be a few lavenders, a few hypos, and a few normal (possible hets.)

Maybe it's as "Xelda" said, it can't be hypo and albino at the same time (but carry the genes for both) But Y!?

But off the topic where'd you get that Lavender? it's expressing a nice orange coloration...

~ZF

So the question would be (for the individual pay'n attention): when you breed a hypo to a lavender,why are all the offpring normal (2x het for both traits)?

This can be explained by Mendelian genetics. When working with recessive traits, both parents must be carrying the genes in order for the babies to have a chance of expressing them. The babies get one chromosome from each parent. Otherwise, the babies would simply inherit the gene but not express it because the phenotype gets dominated by the normal (wild type) appearance. It's the same as crossing a hypo with a normal. You'll end up with normals het for hypo because the normal is dominant. So when you cross a hypo with a lavender, you 're working with two separate recessive traits. The only way you would be able to produce any hypo lavenders in the F1 generation is if the hypo is het lavender and the lavender is het hypo.

Maybe it's as "Xelda" said, it can't be hypo and albino at the same time (but carry the genes for both) But Y!? [/

It can't be hypomelanistic (having only a little melanin) if it's not producing any melanin to begin with (amelanistic).
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chickabowwow

exactly,how can it show reduced melanin if its homo Amelanistic.Chris

Quote:
"It can't be hypomelanistic (having only a little melanin) if it's not producing any melanin to begin with (amelanistic)."

~"Xelda"

It can't be hypomelanistic (having only a little melanin) if it's not producing any melanin to begin with (amelanistic).

I will have to disagree with this. I think we can have both traits expressed in the same animal.......it's just a little harder to recognize. Let me try to explain.

In my opinion, a hybino animal will have more color overall as compaired to a lavender animal. Where the typical white pigment on a amel would be, I think we'll see a bleed over of color from the reduced amount of melanin in a hybino. After all, from what I've noticed in Hondurans, the black only covers up color underneith. On my hypos, the reduced black has quite a bit of orange showing through. Combine this with amel and you should have reduced white. Make any sense? Probably not, but I tried.lol.

Brandon Osborne

Yes, that makes plenty of sense. That's what I said in my first reply to this thread. It would be hypo but not hypomelanistic.
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chickabowwow

I would expect a hybino to look like an albino. That is what happened when I combined the genes for black and albino in some lab mice. The effect of the albino gene prevented the effect of the black gene from appearing.

OTOH, it is possible that the hypomelanistic mutant gene has some effect that is not masked by the action of the albino gene. The only way to find out is to make some hybinos and see what they look like.

Masking the effect of one mutant gene by another mutant gene is called epistasis.

Paul Hollander
link to a paper on dominance, codominance, and epistasis

>> when you breed a hypo to a lavender,why are all the offpring normal (2x het for both traits)?

i can't speak from knowledge with brooksi, but that's the result that would be expected from breeding two diff cal king morphs together, or two diff hondo morphs together, etc. what about that result surprises you?

>>i have yet to attempt 2xhet-2xhet hybino breeding, but i assume the out come would be a few lavenders, a few hypos, and a few normal (possible hets.)

based on other species & ssp again, i think you'd get some hypos, some albinos, and a very small number (1 in 16) of hybinos. they might LOOK just like the albinos, but they'd be there, in a large enuff sample. and, of course, you would get a considerable number of normal looking "possible double hets"--the majority would be those possibles (9 out of 16, if my math is correct).

peace
terry

the results of breeding two separate morphs didn't surprise me.

the reason i post such a question was cuz someone stated that the lavender and hypo morphs may just be different levels of hypomenalism, so i asked the question... why then would the offspring of the hypoXlav be all normal is they where simply to differnet stages of the same morph ... kinda like hypo hondurans you have "regular" hypos with dark eyes, then hypos that look kinda purplish with ruby-red eyes, then you have x-treme hypos, i'm sure all three are compatible

i guess i just post the question in the wrong manner

~ZF

ZF: Nothing wrong with the question, then, I just didn't know what assumptions you were operating on.

You say of the three different hypo hondo morphs "I'm sure all three are compatible." You might be sure, but a lot of us aren't, and that's even without determining exactly what you mean by "compatible".

If you mean they're all the same genetic mutation, occurring on the same gene pair, just exhibiting different degrees of the change in appearance (you also referred to "two different stages of the same morph" in the brooksi) that's one thing. In that case, crossing any of them would always yield hypos in the range of the three types.

Problem with that definition is that we do not know yet that that is the case. It's hoped this year's breeding resutls will answer that question, but that's not a sure thing, and there's some reason to doubt that it's the case (just one example--if all are within the natural range of the single hypo morph, why did it show up only after many years, and only out of one collection, to the best of my knowledge The change is more abrupt than could logically be explained by people or that breeder simply line-breeding for ever-lighter hypos.)

On the other hand, if by "compatible" you may mean they are three different mutations that occur on different gene pairs (alleles) and thus--because they're different and occurring in different places--are "compatible" or can "co-exist" on an individual animal (this does not necessarily mean all 3 characteristics would "show" but it does mean each would exist as as a homozygous condition). And it's possible--see below--the 3 diff morphs in this case would have a compounding effect.

Regardless, if this was what you meant by compatible, then you could breed any two together and yes, the offspring would look normal--assuming the breeding animals were homozygous for the specific hypo type (call them a and b) but NOT het for the other--the homozygous a animal is NOT het for hypo b, etc. But again, we don't know that to be the case with the animals we have to work with.

Consider a couple possibilities with the hypo types that may or may not lead you and others here to have that "a-ha" moment when it dawns on us what's going on with the brooksi:

(first of all, let me say that the distinction you draw between the first two types of hypo hondos is not a universally accepted distinction among the hondo breeders I know, and I don't know anyone who has reported establishing separate lines of those two hypothetical types of hypos, which should be possible if they exist).

Anyway, let's just consider the "traditional" hypo that's been produced for years, and the dramatically lighter "extreme" hypo that occurred several years ago for the first time. The first extremes occurred out of the traditional hypo line, so any of those extremes could be het for the traditional type, or even homozygous for it, IF they are in fact two different mutations.

I mentioned a "compounding effect" earlier: what if the extremes are the result of a second hypo morph that doesn't lighten animals any more than the original "traditional" hypo variant did, but the extremes are the animals that are DOUBLE morphs--they're "traditional" hypo AND "type 2" hypo occurring on the same animal. Suppose hypothetically each morph reduces the normal melanin by 30%: On a double-morph, with both genetic changes takjing place on the appearance, the melanin would be reduced approx 60%, resulting in a much lighter animal. Or the traditional type might reduce melanin 30%, the "type 2" hypo might reduce melanin 60%--maybe the middle-type hypos some people report seeing--"gee, it's lighter than the hypos i've been producing for years, but it's not as light as the extreme"--maybe THOSE are type 2s with 60% reduction, and the extremes are the double-morphs, with melanin reduced approx 90%, by the hypotehtical numbers used in this example. 60%, 90%, those are subjective values, but i think you get the point. Adn it should be evident how complicated the situation MIGHT be, and how it's gonna take some work to figure it out...and to return to the beginning, to remember what we do NOT yet know.

The point is, until there are a lot of babies produced--from crosses to animals KNOWN not to be het for any type of hypo, for example--and the possible components are isolated, we can't assume much. We can hypothesize possibilities, but not assume conclusions, if that makes sense. The examples I gave here are applicable, but certainly don't cover all of the possibilities.

So it's a complex problem that will probably eventually be reduced to simple solutions.

So far as our dialog about this issue is concerned, maybe someone or a number of someones expressed things to you as fact that MIGHT be, but aren't fact yet, or maybe opinions were assumed to be fact. Regardless, I hope this helps explain why I asked my initial question. I find all of this extremely interesting -- and it's extremely important to us as breeders. But sometimes assumptions or opinions get ahead of the game.

peace
terry

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is not >>the reason i post such a question was cuz someone stated that the lavender and hypo morphs may just be different levels of hypomenalism, so i asked the question... why then would the offspring of the hypoXlav be all normal is they where simply to differnet stages of the same morph ... kinda like hypo hondurans you have "regular" hypos with dark eyes, then hypos that look kinda purplish with ruby-red eyes, then you have x-treme hypos, i'm sure all three are compatible
>>
>>i guess i just post the question in the wrong manner
>>
>>~ZF

Hey Terry,
I have a pair of hypo Hondurans that are very different in appearance, my female is what I'd call the "regular"/ tradition hypo (she's lighter than my "tangerine dream", has dark bands, dark eyes and show a little tipping)

My Female with my male under her

My male is what I'd call a "lavender hypo" (he's lighter than both my "tangerine dream" and hypo females, his bands are purplish, and he has ruby red eyes)
My male

I believe these are the same mutation just expressed differently.
I have yet to breed Hondurans of any sort, but last season when I went looking for hypos I there was a similar example on the "Hanely's Herps" web site. the neonates appeared to be "tradition" hypo and "lavender" hypos all from the same clutch, they where sired by an x-treme male bred to a "traditional" female (freaky)

your arguments are very interesting and make lots of sense in my opinion.... Kinda like different forms of a virus combined to make a "super virus" immune to all vaccines. the x-treme hypo may just be as you said a combination of type I and type II hypos to create the much lighter type III (x-treme).

I'm not big on genetics but I do find snake genetic rather interesting and I'd love to learn more, let me know what turns up with the x-tremes as well as the hybinos (hondurans)

~ZF

This dichotomy is too simplistic for me. It's like saying that there are two songs. One is "Yankee Doodle" and the other isn't.

Paul Hollander

My personal theory on hypo. Is that it doesnt reduce the black, but draws everything else out better, than the wild type.
Therfore causing the hybino to have more color, and to appear diffrently. If that makes any sense?

Daniel

>>My personal theory on hypo. Is that it doesnt reduce the black, but draws everything else out better, than the wild type.

i THINK there are two factors contributing color to brooksi--melanin, which can produce blacks and browns, and erythrins, which can produce yellow and reds?

that being the case, then if what you're describing is correct, the animal would be called "hypererythristic," i'd think--having more than normal erythrins.

i don't think that'll turn out to be the case though...at least in other hypos, it seems to me obvious the melanin is reduced.

and now that i think about it, to possibly correct myself, at a minimum, the melanin is being changed to produce brown rather than black, or more brown than black. that change is visibly apparent, and i don't think solid black could be changed to brown merely by excess erythrins overcoming the black color. but maybe.

I think the REAL insights into all of this will come when we're able to do tissue analysis for an affordable price, and can truly then describe the change in color production that's taking place on a cellular basis rather than our present means of interpreting what we see.

terry