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Ive always been under the impression that coral albino boas were bloodline specific. There was some question in another forum where some even suggested pastel dreams albinos were/are actually coral albinos. This is under the logic that coral albinos are a phenotype and anything that falls within that range of phenotype coloration can be called a coral. I disagree with that on multiple levels, the first being that the coloration came from the introduction of the pastel line and the second being that I understand coral albinos to be a bloodline and not a phenotype. But the pastel issue is not what im curious about (Not worth it, lol.. that issue is obvious to me).

Another way to phrase this question is "Are coral albinos a KIND (phenotype) or a LINE (bloodline)"

I have called and emailed Peter Kahl on the issue and have not gotten a response thus far.

Well from my little knowledge of it, the Coral is a bloodline, and only starts to show the red visual after they reach about 2 years of age. Before that they look normal. As I understand it there is also Albino Argentine crosses that have the look of the coral at a young age due to the very strong pinks from the Argentine side, the only thing I wonder is does it last or disapear in time as the Argentines also loose that pink color. Andy

Argentine cross albinos do have coral color, but are not corals. Peter Kahl explains this and the notion that the Coral trait is one within a single bloodline.

Read down below, there was a discussion that may or may not help.

I dont believe either loses their color with age. I believe each animal is an individual and shouldnt be included in a blanket statement. I have seen large adults of both which have retained huge amounts of color.

I copied this from Petes site:

The coral albino boas originated from one of my original hetero bloodlines I produced in 1990 or 1991. When I bred hetero's from this bloodline I noticed several of the babies were much more colorful and had a lavender coral color to them. I kept them back and as they grew there color intensified to almost a purple/lavender all over the animal.

In 2000 I bred two coral albinos together all the babies came out coral albinos so I knew at this time it was simple recessive genetics. These F2 babies were even more colorful than the F1 I had produced. I only have a few of these beautiful albinos I'm breeding and I'm raising several from 2000. I'm breeding these into several different boas such as arabesque, striped, jungle, and several others. As adults they are almost completely purple.

Pete bred the two original albino males to several normal females, as it says on his website:

"...I bred the two males to several normal females in 1990 in the basement of my townhouse. Two females produced a total of thirty-two heterozygous babies in June of 1990..."

Then on the coral page he states:

"...The coral albino boas originated from one of my original hetero bloodlines I produced in 1990 or 1991..."

From that I conclude that Coral Albinos are a BLOODLINE. In order to have a true coral albino and represent it as such you must know for sure that it originates from this original het that Peter Kahl produced in 1990 or 1991 (there were many produced in the litter, corals originated from ONE of them).

The reason I brought this up is because I know of somebody representing at least two of his boas as Coral Albino / Coral Sunglow boas. The sunglow he calls a "coral" sunglow was produced by the albino female that he calls a "coral" albino. The problem is that the albino female came from and was produced by Jeff Ronne, who admittedly has never worked with the coral line...ever. This person explained to me that because his albinos, originating from Jeff Ronne, had nice color and some coral characteristics that they are corals and he can represent them as such. From that I thought, are corals a bloodline or a phenotype? If they are just a phenotype then I could see where he was coming from. But if corals are a bloodline you have to know for sure they came from that line to represent them as such.

What is your opinion? If everyone started calling their albinos corals because they subjectively thought they looked like one I would think the market would become flooded with non-coral bloodlines. I cant imagine how that could be legitimate. Correct me if im wrong here, lol.

To be called a Coral I would think they would have to be from Petes Coral bloodline. Kinda like a boa that looks like a jungle is not a jungle unless it came from the Swedish bloodline. Thats my opinion. Vinnie

If you breed a coral albino to a regular kahl albino would there be coral offspring or just regular albinos?

This does need to be addressed. As Pete states they were from his bloodline of hets...how many were sold? Where are they now? Andy

Here is the thread, there are pictures of both boas there:

http://www.redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19431&page=2&pp=10

I called him on it there but later the post was erased because that forum is non-confrontational.

I wont deny that the female Albino (Produced by Jeff Ronne) does have a nicely colored head that resembles some of the coral bloodline albinos. And the male sunglow is a killer boa with great body and head color. But the female Albino again, produced by Jeff Ronne, is not a coral line.

Heres a quote from Jeff Ronne from January of this year:

"By the way, I did not acquire my first "Coral" Albino until 2003. He was produced by Pete in I believe 2000. I have not bred him successfully yet."

Jeff Ronne has never produced albinos from the coral bloodline.

The male sunglow that he calls a coral sunglow is a result of that female albino and a salmon het albino. Neither are known to be from the coral bloodline.

From the way it sounds they would all be albinos het for Coral.

Which is similiar to pastel boas. Generally the better the coral albino the better the offspring will be in regards to coral... and there also will be more coral offspring. Pete has bred coral x coral and got all corals, which is what can happen with polygenic traits. The same thing would happen if you bred two nice pastels together.

So you can get corals from a coral x regular albino breeding. How many and how nice depends on the quality of the coral.

One example off the top of my head I can give is Tom Burke's Coral Arabesque Albino this year (Coral Alb x Ara het Alb). The offsprings color was so obviously influenced by the coral. CE has one and has posted excellent pictures... its color is insane!

I don't know how complete his understanding of the genetics of the Coral were when he wrote that. On the other hand that opens up the possibility of there being multiple lines of "Coral" Albinos just like there are pastels. Which would mean someone would not be out of line to call an Albino that shows Coral influence a Coral even if not from Petes Line. Just like there are many Pastel lines other than Jeff's

A line of Pastel Albinos, and Pete just didn't know it at the time.

Selectively breed to reduce black (in a normal boa), which reveals color. Then further selective breeding towards color is more effecient, because it has been revealed by reducing black. This yeilds a superior colored boa.

Pete's coral line started from one of the many initial hets. Now this is just theory but, this het probably had pastel-like increase of etherin, or red color. There were many phenotypes in all the initial hets, this one het happened to have an extra amount of color. When the black was reduced in the form of amelanism (albino) the color from this het was revealed and the line was begun.

So similiar to pastels in that its a high etherin line... but it was not derived through selectively breeding out black. It was sporadicly found in a litter of hets.

I spoke to Pete tonight about this. He said that from his knowledge and past breedings coral albino x albino breedings will produce corals ( not certain how many ) but corals will pop up. He told me of one breeding from a Jungle het albino to a Coral Albino and he got corals out of that litter. Only time will tell . I myself have a coral male with an albino female at this time. Ill let you all know how that goes. Hope this helps.

Spencer

There are multiple lines of pastel.

Pastel is a phenotype. Pastel dreams is a bloodline.

High color albinos are a phenotype. Coral albinos are a bloodline.

I can call my normal boa a pastel if it has enough reduction of black.

I can call my normal albino boa a high color albino boa if it has enough extra color.

I cannot call my normal boa a pastel dreams boa, regardless of how much reduced black it has or how much it resembles a pastel dreams boa.

I cannot call my normal albino boa a coral albino boa, regardless of how much extra color is has or how much it resembles a coral albino boa.

See what im saying?

Now, you can say "My albino has coral-like color" .. or "My albino has coralish coloration" or "My albino has a lot of coral coloration (implying that it resembles albinos from the coral bloodline)".

Or you can even prove the color genetic and make up your own coral name, like the "Bubblegum Coral Albinos" for example.

From what I understand if you straight up call your albino boa a coral albino and it is not from the Pete Kahl coral bloodline it is a mis-representation.

Thats kinda the same thing as when there was an arguement weather any Super Hypo Hogg was a "Sunset" or not and people went crazy saying that there was no way only a D&M line Super Hypo Hogg could be called a "Sunset" that it would have to include all Super Hypos Hoggs. Just food for Thought.

As you know Sunsets are derived through mixing locals. Mix one ingredient A(hog) with another B (colombian hypo) and you get C.

So to get sunsets or that sunset look (whether you call it a sunset or a sunset looking boa depends on your stance of that particular arguement) you can mix known locales and get the look.

I dont want to start the sunset debate up but my personal opinion on that issue is that originator makes the choice. To my knowledge they are calling it bloodline specific so I personally would respect their wishes and not copy their name. If they feel they have someone special with their particular line, so be it. I havent produced or seen enough hog/hypos or sunsets to debate them.

With corals you cant just go find A .. breed it to B .. and make C (Corals), unless A or B is a coral. Because corals are bloodline specific a piece of the bloodline has to be in the mix for it to happen. In my opinion, The sunset debate has some validity because of the locale cross factor. Think sunglow, (A B = C) .. corals are very different. I dont see how anyone could justify calling their high color albino a coral unless they know 100% for sure it comes from the coral line. And when I think about it, if that were a legitimate thing to do, many people would be doing it (ive seen many high color albinos that resemble coral bloodline albinos). Eventually no one would know which lines are from Peter's bloodline and which are from 3rd party bloodlines. If I buy a coral I want to know that it came from Peters line... not some person who subjectively believes they have corals.

I sure wish Pete would have tacked another word onto coral to make it seem more signature specific. Would have cleared up a lot of confusion. Coral dreams?

I would only buy a Coral if I had proof it was from Petes line.

something.

Salmons are often refered to as salmon "phase" hypos.

Coral albinos are also often refered to as coral "phase" albinos.

See the correlation?

How were salmons derived?

A litter of F1's were produced and ended up in some state, i forgot which one (F1's always have the most genetic variation). One of the F1's founded the salmon line while another founded the Gee-line.

Can we make a hypo from a Gee-line that looks very close, indistinguishable from a salmon? Yes. Does that make it a salmon? No.

How were corals derived?

A litter of F1's were produced from one of Petes original two male albinos that were bred to several normal females. Out of one of the many F1's produced, which have the most genetic variation, came the coral line.

Can we make an albino from one of the other F1 bloodlines that closely resembles a coral? Yes. Does that make it a coral? No.

I think at this point Salmon and Hypo are basically synonym's for each other. Six of one half dozen of another. Rich chose to name them Salmons, but remember he was the first person to have them meaning, even Jeff's line came from "Salmons". They are all still Hypomelanistic Boas. Not to mention Hypos are so mixed at this point, and there are many different lines that came from imported Central American Hypos. Maybe at some point in the future when there are more out there the same will be true of "Pastel Dream" Albino and "Coral" Albino, but I doubt it because as you said both Hypo lines came from the same bloodline while the Pastel Dreams and Corals are from different bloodlines, and it would be nearly impossible to prove them to be the same geneticaly.

Corals were derived sporadicly from one individual in an F1 litter of morph x normal.

Salmons were derived sporadicly from one individual in an F1 litter of morph x normal.

(When I say "sporadicly" I just mean that it was not selectively bred to produce the bloodline)

F1 litters, especially the matriarch litters, have the most genetic variation. You can take each of those F1 babies and examine them.. seperate them into distinct phenotypes.. and have many distinguishable bloodlines.

Salmons branched off of one while Gee's branched off of another. So Gee's line didnt come from Salmons. The matriarch to the Gee line was a sibling to the matriarch to the Salmon line. They both come from the same original line but they are seperate F1 lines (F1 is significant because thats where the most genetic variation is).

So if someone bought an albino from that original litter and it gained alot of color they could have called them "Ketchup" albinos and even though from the same litter originally it would be a seperate line from Corals. I almost think it would only be a different line if it came from totally seperate bloodlines, but I can see your point also. Hmmmm