Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was bored last night and started thinking about all the cool double co-dom animals that have been produced yet and I got stumped when I thought about the Super Pewter. Anyone working on this? What the heck do you think it would look like? Anyone have any guesses? A Super Pastel Patternless Ball Python.....hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Jason

Depends which way you back crossed. Crossing the pewter back to the cinnamon will probably produce a muddy brown snake like a brown water python in the super form. However, crossing the pewter with a pastel should turn out quite nicely. Consider this young lady in bright yellow.

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Al Zulich
Harford Reptile
www.pythons.com

I'd have to disagree with what you said when crossed back to a pastel. The cinnamon/black pastel gene eliminates most, if not all of the yellow found in pewters. It is my belief that a super pastel pewter would be similar to a pewter, but more faded out and with an extremely bald head and maybe almost white/blueish blushing spots like that of super pastels. Only time will tell I guess, so in no way am I saying you are wrong, I just beg to differ. By the way, that is a pretty girl you produced.

Ahhh but the OP asked what would a super-pastel & super cinnamon snake look like.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

But what if it turns out that cinnamon and pastel are alleles (different mutations of the same gene)? Since you can't have more than two copies of the same gene no mater how many different versions there are it would not be possible to go any farther than pewter. If cinnamon and pastel are alleles then pewter X pewter would produce about 25% super pastel, 50% pewter, and 25% super cinnamon.

Ahhh,...like an Ebony would produce granites yb's and ebonys.
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Charles Glaspie

If granite and yellow belly turn out to be alleles then ebony X normal would only produce about 50% yb and 50% granite but no normals or ebony. It will be fun to see how these turn out!

What do you think Pastel and Spiders are...allies? Bumblebees to normals produce Bumblebees, Pastel, Spiders, and normals according to Kevin. And then Ebonies should reproduce itself when produced to a normal also. The bigger question is the Lesser X Mojave = Lucy. And that Lucy when crossed to a normal SHOULD produce Lucys, Mojaves, Lessers, and normals. UNLESS the Lessers and Mojaves are exactly the same animal but different look. Like the Blonde, Lemon and normal Pastel.

GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles

"What do you think Pastel and Spiders are...allies? Bumblebees to normals produce Bumblebees, Pastel, Spiders, and normals according to Kevin."

The fact that the killer bee (super pastel spider) was even possible and was produced so quickly indicates that spider and pastel aren't alleles (i.e. they are different mutations of DIFFERENT genes) and in fact probably aren't even on the same chromosome.

"And then Ebonies should reproduce itself when produced to a normal also."

As long as granite and yb are not alleles. They probably aren't but the Ebony was an unexpected combo appearance so maybe that indicates the two mutations have something in common. Kind of the same thinking that makes me wonder about cinnamon and pastel. The pewter ingredients also have going for them in favor of perhaps being alleles the similarities between cinnamon and pastel. I don’t really know enough about what granite and yb look like to say if they also have similarities.

"The bigger question is the Lesser X Mojave = Lucy. And that Lucy when crossed to a normal SHOULD produce Lucys, Mojaves, Lessers, and normals. UNLESS the Lessers and Mojaves are exactly the same animal but different look. Like the Blonde, Lemon and normal Pastel."

Yes, I'm betting that based on the similar appearances and the common leucistic thread that lesser, mojave, and phantom are probably all alleles if not the exact same mutation as seems likely with the pastels. I'm expecting no normals or leucistics from leucistic X normal but it will certainly be interesting to see what actually happens.

I agree... the first two Black Pewters Ian produced were silver and black as babies... no yellow.

I also believe the Cinnamon and Black Pastels are two distinct morphs, although very similar.

Nice girl Al!

Oz
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OZZYBOIDS

I totally agree with you Oz. There is an obvious difference between the two visually and when crossed with pastels, as shown above there is a drastic difference between a black pastel pewter and a pewter produced from graziani's line of cinnamon. I've noticed that black pastels don't have as extreme dorsal blushing as do cinnamons in most cases, obviously there are candidates for each though that are extreme and can make you think otherwise.