Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had good luck in the past keeping Dendrobates luecomelas with phantasticus. Recently I sold away most of my collection sicne i moved ot vet school thinking that I'd neither have the time nor the money to devote to such endeavors. what a mistake.

I have a spare 125 gallon aquarium that I'd like to set up elaborately with intentions of keeping fimbriatus. 125s arent very tall, but should this be large enough to house a trio of fimbriatus? Additionally, I'd like some daytime activity in the tank, so I was thinking that perhaps some large dart frogs such as tinctorius could fill that niche. i was considering some type of phelsumas, but I hate mixing animals of the same "type" if you get my drift ( 2 types of lizards). I'd think this would be fine since they are active at different times and likely in different areas of the tank. I am concerned with the size, and the frogs beaing eaten and was wondering if thit has been attempted before. I also have concerns about the height of the tank. any info would be greta thanks!

even an attempt to eat a poison arrow frog will most definately prove to be fatal to your gecko ( and possibly the frog ) you're not only risking the death of the gecko but likely that of the frog.
i definately would not try this.
geckos don't think before they eat, they see a moving target and strike, with a poison arrow frog ( or many other types of apmhibians) just a taste could kill your gecko.
have you ever seen a dog try to eat a toad? or even play with one? the second it gets in their mouth they spit it out ( because it tastes awful) and usually start puking almost immediately. a dog of any type is obviously much larger than a fimbriatus and can take the little disruption in their diet.

you could however use a glass or plexiglass divider to make it look like it is one habitat but just make it impossible for the two to meet one another.

I would just stick to 1 species.......It is the safest thing to do. I think them being active at different times will disturb the others' rest time.

John

RED FLAG RED FLAG.

YOU ARE IN VET SCHOOL YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT AMPHIBIAN TOXINS regardless of your discipline.

arrow frogs arent toxic in captivity. Toxicity is based on diet. i had no problem doing this in the past with the phantasticus, but my quesiton is more along the lines of how large of items would they try to eat? these thigns are like 2-2.5 inches and an inch wide. I am more curious about the size of prey that they will try to eat. Wont these frogs be larger than the head of the fibriatus?

Because only WC darts have toxins, I agree that toxicity is not an issue...regardless, a nearly full grown fim can EASILY take a full grown tinc... I wouldn't house fims in anything less than 36 inches tall, no matter how much floor space there is... and this is stretching it...
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Ben

despite the fact that they are not toxic ( to the touch) they are still toxic if eaten i believe. i witnessed a cuban tree frog attempt to eat a captive born poison dart frog and both died within an hour of the attempt.
either way the frog will likely be eaten or attempt to be eaten, and the fimbriatus will likely die if it tries to eat even a cb arrow frog.

Ok. WC or Dart frogs in the wild ONLY produce toxins because they eat fire ants which is why they have the Toxins. I have seen this one many "reptile TV shows" (like Croc. Hunter and Jeff Corwin)and have also read it in many books. Erik

OK, here's the real deal on toxicity in Dendrobates.

In the wild, alkaloids from the insects the frog eats are refined and stored in poison glands in the skin. In captivity, while they do not have the insects to acquire the alkaloids from, they due still have the same poisons glands that EVERY amphibian has in its skin. The poisons in the glands that all amphibians have are produced by the body without any special prey or environmental conditions. Soooo... while no longer the deadly force they are in the wild, captive Dendrobates do still possess some poisons which could potentially harm another animal if it attempted to eat the frog.

I'm sure some of you will wonder how I'm qualified to give this "real deal." I am a 3rd year biology major, so while I'm not a certified herpetologist, I have taken the full gamut of biology classes. In fact, I'm in a full scale herpetology class currently, and we just finished discussing anurans (frogs) and there toxicity--including Dendrobatids.

As to the original question, I have considered putting Golden Mantellas in with my henkeli, as they are native to the same general area of Madagascar. Actually, your fimbriatus are also from the same areas as some Mantellas, so you might want to consider that. As for me, I'm trying to breed my henks now, so I'll stick with just the gex.

Jared

exactly what i said is correct. although they are not dangerous to touch or handle, it is most likely deadly if eaten.

This always seems to happen to me. I make a simple comment based on my experience and knowledge, someone feels the need to argue and it always needs further explained. Next time I am going straight to the novel!

So… while being a senior in biology who has taken a plethora of classes, all that you list and more, I also have nearly three years of direct experience keeping and breeding over 30 species/morphs of Dendrobatids, Phyllobatids and Mantellas in a professional setting. Along with this experience, I also have an extensive library of original scientific journals on this exact discipline, one that is VERY well studied mind you.

Toxicity is NOT the issue here, period. CB dart frogs, fed on a pinhead cricket diet, do not produce toxins. If your logic was true, then you should be just as worried about housing Mantellas with henkeli. They have convergently evolved the same mechanism of arthropod diet and subsequent toxin production of “dendrobatid alkaloids.”

That's right!... Based on toxicity alone, CB darts and mantellas aren't deadly to the touch, not deadly if eaten by your dog, not deadly if eaten by your 4 year old son, and certainly NOT deadly if eaten by your gecko...

The real issue here is the fact that even the largest dart frog is still within the realm of possible prey size for a fimbriatus. (As is any mantella to a henkeli) If someone’s willing to try housing fimbriatus with D. tinctorius, then please let us know how the fimbriatus liked its $100 (or more) meal.

Here’s an excerpt directly from an article by J. W. Daly (J. Nat. Prod. 1998, 61, 162-172);

“At the present time, about 20 major structural classes of alkaloids have been found in studies that have spanned three decades, three continents, and over 70 genera of frogs/toads from 11 amphibian families. Frogs of genera Phyllobates, Denrobates, and Epipedobates have been found to COMPLETELY lack skin alkaloids when raised in captivity, as have frogs in the mantelline genus Mantella. A variety of environmental manipulations do not trigger alkaloid production, but frogs fed alkaloid-dusted fruit flies efficiently accumulate unchanged such alkaloids exclusively into skin….”
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Ben

And a cuban tree frog will die trying to eat a cat if you let it...
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Ben

Ben let me just pull my head right out of my rear at this point.

good points, i was just judging from watching the cuban tree frog try to eat one. it wasn't too large for the tree frog to eat so i assumed it was still toxic ( if eaten)

First of all, in no way do I devalue hands on experience. I have only a few years of experience myself, and that mostly with gex and agamid. I am just making a judgment on a situation based on all the knowledge available to me. So, I think I understand your point to be: there is no toxicity whatsoever in captive poison frogs, and therefore, no risk to any animal that eats them.

As I said, however, while there may be no alkaloid sequestering as in the wild, captive frogs still produce the same amount of simple poisons produced by every amphibian (albeit, in differing amounts according to species). There have been no studies to-date that I know of which analyze the toxicity of darts and other poison frogs to other animals based solely on there production of non-sequestered poisons. So, I would not be so sure whether a dog, human, or gecko would be safe eating a captive poison frog.

Why then, would I suggest Mantellas as a possible co-inhabitant with Uroplatus? Mantellas have evolved along side of Uroplatus, and so there should be some recognition of the bright yellow and orange aposematic coloration by the gex. I'm not sure of the exact natural ranges, but I know Bill Love, well known for his deep understanding of Malagasy herps, has seen, and even photographed, Mantellas and fimbriatus and henkeli together (sorry, I don't have access to those photos).

Jared

From scientific understanding to date, CB dart frogs are NOT capable of producing their own toxins without eating the appropriate diet… It’s not physiologically viable… Some other amphibians, which you speak of generally, can produce their own toxins… And although once thought to have been producing these alkaloids anew from biochemical precursors within the frog, dart frogs can only maintain these chemicals through advanced systems that serve to accumulate them from dietary sources… This really isn’t even a topic up for debate as I have numerous scientific papers supporting this statement…

And to house Mantellas with henkeli on the basis of them occurring in the same natural range is absurd… Your house, in a 40 gallon tank, is no way a natural situation… Besides, I would venture to say that because Mantellas are terrestrial and henkeli are arboreal (generally 3-4 meters off the forest floor) they probably don’t encounter each other that often in the wild… But I guess, if you have Mantella’s coming out of your ears, it would be something worth trying… Please let us know how it works…

. o O (Good thing most Mantellas are cheap)
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Ben

On last time, whether you want to believe it or not: All amphibians are fully capable of producing their own toxins-including poison frogs. Although they can no longer produce the alkaloid based super-toxins, poison frogs will still have your average, run-of-the-mill frog toxins in there glandular skin. Period.

As for a 40 gallon, or even a vivarium of the size I keep my trio of henkels in (about 200 gallons, 4' wide, 2' deep, 4' high) not being a "natural environment", I fully agree. Uroplatus do often hunt for forest floor prey, however, and mantellas are semi-arboreal, so they probably do have some contact indeed. Like I said, though, I just considered it, but have decided against it for myself. It was just an idea.

Jared

oops

. o O (shaking head)
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Ben

First off I fimbriatus need a higher tank than a 125 gallon long. Although its possible to keep different species of reptiles and amphibians together it does not neccessarily make it a good thing. Just think about it for a second. Uroplatus come from Madagascar, dendrobates from South America and already you have your answer. No!!! From what I have read for darts to do well they require higher temps than are healthy for uroplatus. Actually we have had this same question posed on the forum twice and I'm kind of surprised.
-Matt