Reptile & Amphibian Forums

... nuff said.
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Very Very Nice

Doug T

Okay scale counters. Count the scales on that Beauty Texican Indigo and tell us what you think.

Doug T

ok, i'll take a stab at it. it kinda looks like an eastern the way the labial is cut off but wasn't the pic taken in texas?

so, does that add some credibility to the story of easterns being released in TX?

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Check out the pic...this looks all Texan to me!

NP

I don't know if you remember our conversation back in 1994.
I had (almost by accident and lucky for sure) successfully produced couperi for the first time...I saw your ad in Reptiles mag (or one of the other publications)...

I called you, and picked your brain about your methods ...as you were the guy who started it all with breeding indigos...

Anyway, I was taking notes, and I think I still have those notes...

I always appreciated your willingness to so freely share your breeding and maintenence methods. They have worked for me!

I still have a male from that 1994 clutch...btw

yeah, i see it now dean, thanks! i guess i need my glasses for more than just reading these days.....:>/

What a great picture/graphic. The original photo immediately gave me the impression of a Texas,though I couldn't say why and haven't really seen that many specimens. The background habitat sure looked like Texas. But then I tried to talk myself into it being an Eastern. Much better than a word description of the scale morphology/relationships. And I think I can remember how it looks. How consistent is it, and if not, do you think the inconsistencies relate to the alleged introductions of the couperi? Thanks Dean, that really was great.

I have never seen an eastern or a TX that was inconsistent with this. Sometimes you need to take a close up and blow it up unless you have really good eyes...

Personally, I doubt that eastern indigos would survive in TX very long. Re-introductions from Florida to MS and AL have not worked, and the habitat is very similar. That being the case, why would they survive in TX, in a MUCH more different environment?

Thanks again for the insight, Dean

Clearly shows the difference. Thanks for your input, it is invaluable to this forum.

Fred Albury

Not sure why anyone had a question about it..

The habitats for E's & TXN's are actually almost identical..Only the vegetation is different..Both locales are very sandy soils, not much ground cover..High humidity areas. EXTREMELY similar climates..I would postulate you could transplant either into the others respective areas and they would thrive in each others homeland...
Comment Deanno?
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

.. I am not any expert on couperi but have encountered about a dozen Indigos in Florida from No-Name Key to Homestead and up the peninsula to Georgia over the last 30 years and myself can draw no conclusion about what is or is not habitat for eastern Indigo snakes.

Of the Texas subspecies I can claim some more intimate knowledge, and although they are found in sandy the habitat you describe they are by no means limited to such areas. They are common in hard clay soil areas, calcareous soils, and most everywhere in between where space and prey are allowed them. In addition, they range much further northwest than many people recognise and inhabit seasonally dry scrub-desert and rocky canyons probably as far up as Langtry.. practically anywhere water can be found on a regular basis. Except for many areas ruined by overuse for stock-management the presence of water tanks and ponds provided for livestock may reinforce and stabilise populations of Indigos in fringe habitat areas.

If there are any keys to locating erebennus in the areas I frequent other than a riparian habitat they likely are, 1) the presence of Opuntia stands and the associated Neotoma rat stick-nests, 2) seasonally abundant amphibian populations..

Though I have observed many big Indigo snakes trailing out of these rat-nests, especially in arid regions, and I also know they prey on the neotoma or other rodents it would be only speculation to say they are primarily there hunting the rats.. they may also be looking for atrox or masticophis or other snakes or even very small G. berlandieri which can be seen in the early months using these nests as refuge.

I hope this info is of some help.
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Habitat seems to be where they are., but I can never completely get that through my head. For an outsider who has never seen the heart of prime or formerly prime-is there lots of good habitat left?- Texas Indigo habitat, it is hard to picture that they even exist in the part of Texas where they do.I would more easily picture them in eastern Texas where they don't live and apparently haven't for a long time, even without man's disturbance. I have always just thought of indigos as being semitropical, humidity loving animals. I have never seen the supposed type habitat of South Texas riparian areas of thornbush etc, but I now realize that I imagined them to be far "greener" areas than they really are just because the "type" drymarchon species in my head is the couperi, which is totally wrong, . So when people talked about seeing them crossing the road at lake Amistad,I was always skeptical and thought they must be just lost, wanderering individuals who happened to survive for awhile.And even when I saw a photo of a nice healthy looking one at the Seminole Indian Campground parking lot in very desert habitat, I always pictured these guys as lost stragglers. I just can't picture them living there cosistently,and successfully but apparently they do.Sort of like Kaulfeld's original bias of where he thought he would find subocularis.But alterna, subocularis and a big black indigo in the same habitat-my brain still doesn't want to accept it. Sure is fun though when folks come up with photos like that or the ones Joe Forks got last year. thanks again for sharing them and for the folks sharing their insights.

Absolutely correct. I have found them in Refugio co. and up around Choke canyon. Yesterday I caught an indigo that was about 41/2 feet but didn't have a brown head or any reddish orange around the throat. I took pics with my stupid camera phone and ,although they didn't come out well, I believe you will be able to see what I'm talking about. Very hot, but very humid around Corpus Christi, and I can see where an eastern could survive if it found the correct factors. I will download those photos of yesterday when I get back from the scout meeting. Fascinating discussion. Great pic Gus! Bravo, Rio Bravo!
Todd Hughes

As promised, here are the cra#&y photos...

a closer shot...

and a head shot....not as good as the ones in the previous posts, but a new digital is on its way!
Todd Hughes

This snake was found in a rat's bundle in an old garage that was converted into a hay loft. I have been looking for Mexican milk snakes and was surprised at finding itin the pile. Do younger Texas indigos not have a brownish head? The only youngster I have ever seen was about 24" long and did have a brownish head, and some pattern to it. This snake was absolutely blue-black with no pattern and a whitish belly. Not blue-gray as I have noticed in the older animals. I will attempt to rephotograph it but find it unlikely it will still be around.
Todd Hughes

I've found them as far north and west as Laredo, but I think Langtry is a stretch, but could be, as terrain certainly isn't much different..Never found them past Corpus Christi..Found them in the orange groves of Brownsville..
I always wondered what made those big rodent nests!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

Really? I know you lived there and I have visited only once.

Thanks. I suppose that makes sense (humid) in the habitat that is near the gulf...but they range much further inland. Isn't it much drier?

In FL. you can literally go from dry very sandy soil and scrub to wet very boggish soil in just a few yards. Most everywhere in the state. A foot in elevation can make all the difference and of course easterns are found in many habitats at various times of the year. I have found them coiled up inside rotted (wet) pine trees and of course the obligatory dry sandy gopher holes in the hot arid scrub. So really, given their extensive range, they must use a wide variety of habitat for cover and hunting needs. They adapt to different habitat--just not to the ever diminishing SIZE of the habitat due to fragmentation.
FL has a hundred "special interest" auto tags--from universities to "save the whales". Do you think we'll ever have an indigo plate??
Maybe if I design one with a gopher tortoise on it too. hmmm....
:Mark