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For those who have read their way thru today on the thread below (and there is some interesting debate down there so don't skip it)...Shall we Continue here?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Let me get a little more specific, you asked for some proofs of co-exsistance I mentioned a few, there are others, now what I did say this is known fact, but I ask you again, what would it take to convince you that what dinasaurs or how many who can say, but even the chineses writing mentions such creatures, they are all over mans history.

As far as evolution, where in the heck did you get that definition. Here specifically (and I know you won't like this) is what I am adressing. Does natural selection happen, of course, we can point to many different animals and plants where this has taken place (this is not evolution). Since I assume we are all herpers, hybridazation is a perfect example, but is a collard lizard changed into a horned lizard, of course nopt, the created blood line a DNA will be of its kind all the way through time. Dr. David Blotenhiser (think thats how it's spelled) did radiation of flies through thousands of generations (early 70's), and created hideous fly's with legs coming out of their heads and whatever, but my point is this--one of the teneants I think that would seperate us from one another, is that a specific specie will be of it's own kind all the way through time, this is why I mentioned the Celocanth and others, because "scientific evidence" supports the fact that the species DNA is indeed intact and unchangeable something you either fail to admit or fail to recognize. If you have a salamander that turns into a lizard because out of some random developemnt it just changed, this is malarkie. If (in your case) there was a creator or master designer and he placed these in creation, such as the white sands lIzard at white Sands New Mexico, try and find one of these 50 ft off the sand dunes. They are not there. I believe they were designed and -placed there as much as the frogs in South America that have their whole life cycle in Picture plants and can only exsist by this symbiotic relationship of which we see this in nature. You absolutely blew off the probablility mathmatics that I talked about. I really think that you are sincere but I think you have been taught into a "System" and really need to look at some of the evidences. Personally I'll admit right here that know one has it all right, but you want to work with facts instead of assumptions, then I think my reading on both sides of the subject makes me think the "facts' and not scientific Assumptions are coming from alot of Creation oriented scientists. The thing that kills you is that if there is a creator then your purpose here is not a random act and you may find yourself accountable to a creator. In a system that rejects GOd there is no morality or fences, but my friend everywhere you look the "creator" has put up fences and bounderies. Ever wonder why most animals in the animals kingdom have eyes, and hearing , touch, and other such things, IF this was all random--how come the patterns of design are staggering? Look around you my friend........
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Be sure to separate "fact" from myth. Using ancient Chinese art to support your argument is a big mistake. Many pieces of Chinese art are products of Chinese mythology, it was also believed a "dragon" introduced the art of painting in China. Natural selection is a MECHANISM that helps cause evolutionary changes. There are several mechanisms that contrinute to evolution, including various forms of isolation (read about Darwin's finches for a better understanding of this concept).
DNA is NOT UNCHANGEABLE as you have suggested. You are a combination of your ancestor's genes, probably with a few mutations thrown in for good measure. Mutations are also a mechanism for evolution, many mutations occur randomly and aren't always the result of some crazy scientific radiation experiment. Many environmental factors also cause mutations...we call them mutagens!
Let me address your Coelacanth point. This group of fish was believed to be extinct because they had not been seen for a long time, their rediscovery simply proved they were not extinct. The lobe finned fish are are among the most ancient vertebrates on Earth. They are not boney plated fish as you have mentioned. That doesn't support your argument at all. Just because they are not extinct doesn't mean there are not any descendants from this species of fish. A group doesn't have to go extinct for evolution to take place. (Although extinction is another mechanism of evolution.) Scienctist have rediscovered many species that were believed to be extinct, as well as discovering many previouslly unknown species that are believed to be among the most ancient of species. (Madagascar is a playground for scientist looking for "new" stuff that has been around for a loooonnnnggg time.)
Evolution doesn't apply to an individual, so I won't waste time addressing the silly salamander example.
The sand lizard example you proposed demonstrates the supreme adaptations that organism has to its environment, we call that a niche. Do not confuse niche with "design and place". That lizard doesn't exist in other places simply because it is not adapted to those environments. I know people who are fantastic swimmers, they don't live in the water because they are not adapted to live in the water. I am also not aware of any species of frog ANYWHERE in the world that lives its "whole life cycle" in a pitcher (correct spelling) plant. There are several species of frogs that place their tadpoles in the pitcher plant (there is a little puddle of water there) to morph into the froglet stage, but it doesn't live its entire life in the plant.
I also addressed your probabilty issue as well. Let me simplify...given enough time and oportunities anything (within the confines of the natural laws) is possible. If I flip a coin 50,000 times, it is possible that at some point I get heads 5 times in a row. Most scientist agree that there have been an unimaginable number of species that have existed on this planet. The number that exist here at this moment is a TINY fraction of this number, probably close to .1%.
As far as the diversity...diversity creates stability (you can ask any financial planner!).
I do not "wonder" why animals have eyes, ears, etc...they exist because it is an advantage for these species to have these adaptations in their habitat. Nature selects those with the best traits to survive and reproduce.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

You know without getting into a P--ing Contest, here's what I see with your answers, they are fine, I once had the same type of answers, but at every point in your discussion - it pointedly leaves any possibility of a creator out of the picture. You should re-read what you have just told me, and then muse on the the possibility that there is a creator and how well you have been schooled inot a "sytem" that is truly anti-creator and your explanation is the non-creator explanation from what I would say is the creator point of view. So it looks a little like we are like two cats chasing a tail. You again blow off the idea of the Salamander turning into a lizard? Isn't that what evolution has at times esposed? My old school books say so? So why was that not acceptable for you to have to deal with? I have been honest in admitting I don't have it all down who does, you have been schooled in a "doctrine" which you can't even consider there is viable arguement that you could be wrong or at the least interpreting it incorrectly. You are a modern marvel of Gods handywork, you are not just mind, body, but also a living soul....you know whats so great about the creator--he didn't make us robots and we get to discuss these issues. "It is the glory of a king to search HIM out......." I do hope you will consider in your scientific fervor to read some of the good information out there, last of all religion I can divorce from our conversation, but a creator I cannot...because all around you is evidence of his handywork--------
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

How do you know "the creator" is a "him"?
Your example of the salamander is incorrect. Nowhere in the scientific literature is there a remark about lizards "coming" or "evolving" from salamanders. However, there is lots of evidence that there may have been a common ancestor that modern lizards AND salamanders may have had. (Once again, no one was around to see this but we do have fossil evidence supporting this idea.)
One issue you may want to consider; instead of discussing all of the "variety" and "differences", you may want to start exploring all the things that living things have in common. You may not want to admit that we have similar structural and biochemical similarities to many other animals. This is not to say we came from monkeys (which is a blatant misquote of Darwin, Wallace and many other scientists). Do you not find it interesting that there are not only so many varities but so many similarities among living things? DNA is the same for almost all living things, with some bacterial exceptions, only the amount and order of the nitrogenous bases accounts for all the differences among EVERY living thing.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

IF you want to go toe to toe on the philosphy of God as to whether "he" is "he or a "she", so lets stay on the topic, because I gave "him" a name I happen to believe HE is a fine way to describe Him, but listen the arguement you just gave me is exactly what I was talking about, in your own breakdown and explanation I see not randomness but design. But there is one difference between us and animals, and I know you believe you are an animal. You've been taught that and ascribe to a Godless perspective, but you are a living soul you are different than other animal life, you even act is if someone or something has written a law of right and wrong into your genetics, otherwise you would not even have such a discussion. You cannot get away from the arguement that you my friend are a piece of Gods creation and design, and you are unique and accountable to a creator for your actions. If you are an animal then I say go act like one, do the things that animals do........design is everywhere all around you and because of the teaching and indoctrination you have recieved you are blind to the thought that there could be some other explanation for your exsistance.........cheers!!
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I am not making any personal attacks on you (or others with similar beliefs) as I don't really know you. You are, however, going to be offended by the following statements. Please accept my pre-emptive apology.
I always bring up the "him" issue in debates whenever someone uses it. I love the response, it helps my argument. My opinion is simple, religion is a man-made creation to help justify our existance and comfort people about death. The idea that we will go to a better place and everything will be perfect when we die makes people feel better. I think it also makes people feel better that people who are perceived as "evil" or "bad" will burn in hell for all eternity, how comforting!
I have no doubt that I am unique...and that is a good thing. However, I also believe my existance is the result of a random event. After all, we were all just a headache away from never being conceived. The major difference between me and "the other animals" is my brain. I have the ability to reason and do higher order thinking. I can appreciate the belief in a "divine entity", but I disagree that we, in some fashion, are God's chosen ones. The belief that we are superior to other animals strikes me as somewhat egocentric.
I was raised in a family of southern baptists...my beliefs/opinions are the result of questioning and getting the same old "don't question god" response. The argument that "you are here and that is proof of god's existance" doesn't quite fly with me. There is a distinct difference between faith and science. Science encourages questions, faith does not.
The original topic of this thread is religion in schools. Schools are not the appropriate place to teach religion. Nor am I qualified to address the beliefs of the many varied religions of the diverse student population I serve (some of which are not very popular right now). Nor is it the taxpayers responsibility to pay for teaching of religion, obvious violation of "separation of church and state". Having said that, most of students pray right before they take one of my tests! I don't mind that, as long as they are not infringing on anyone else's ability to concentrate or take their test.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

You speak like animals are something contemptous..I freely acknowledge my heritage as one. Animals are honest and behave according to their nature. In that I consider them superior to my own species, that has shown its self to be (on many occasions) treacherous and corrupt. And usually at this exhaulted Man is it's worst when pretenting that they are under the grace of some God they have created to inflate their egos.

Act like an animal...Gladly, for animals do not break their word and lie like humans. They do not justify genicide under the sanctimonious bull of religion, or political power.

As to your pathetic claim of indoctrination...Since you refuse to allow this debate the dignity of acknowledging free thinking on all parties here, I see you as the slave to your own Bigotry. Trapped you are in a mind that cannot think past what the leaders of your religion have spoon-fed you since infancy.

Your bigotry even extends to the refusal to accept that this being you beleive in can be anything other than male-which of course feeds the myth of male dominance.

You have been presented with the product of some very intelligent minds and I am proud to stand with them on this issue.

Ultimatly, you have failed to disprove anything offered to you in this debate and have made nought but speculation based on propoganda, mis-information and myth.

Such a mind as you exibit here, is beyond reasoning with.

I'm happy to be an animal my friend-it's better company.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Rearfang-I think your front fang! Please look at my other post of information you may want to read some day, obviously this is getting way out of hand, your evaluation of me from a politically correct perspective is actually demeaning, but if you also consider yourself and animal then I need to step back
...........cheers you made your point.
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

That comment was supposed to make sense? Sorry, you lost it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

After reading the posts a little more I realize I missed a couple, but let me ask you a question, why are you against the teaching of creationisnm? You personally don't believe in a creator or God and it is all due to a random process? Can you at least give some of the Darwins of this century the grace to explore some of the "facts" from their perspective? I personally don't ascribe to the 6,000 year earth. I believe God can do anything, as I said I just don't think anyoine has it all down...but again, you have your arguments and your beliefs and I hope that will take you through to the end of your exsistance with satisfaction--but it amazes me that the signes and evidence of design is everywhere, I mean everywhere, yet good people like you refuse to consider this? How is that? Is it the God thing that sends you on a tail spin? You know with respect to the celeocanth, I used that because it readily made the point and even if it is as you say a different specie, are you willing to define as to when it actually came into exsistance, like in the last 6-10,000 years therefore making this not an acceptable example of an ancient fish. The 1938 thing so what? I have read several articles on this fish, interestingly not one of them mentions them as a modern fish? So then how do you account for the other living fossils that again have not changed one iota? With respect to the Hubbell, I have read several articles as well as heard some discussions on radio with resepct to the waves in the universe that could not be detected until this technology arrived, and it had to do with the second law of thermo dynamics and was predicted to be a certian way and apparently it was different and for those that discussed the data it seems this was hard to refute that this was do to a master designer and not random. Again I admit that this stuff was pretty heady, I think there are several books that have been written that challenge evolution and include this in there information. Last of all you mentioned the pocket watch thing, the whole point had to do with the radom acts that it would take say to develop an eye--the mathematic probabilty of this happening given your scenerio is still beyond possible. The furthur we dig down in the cells the more complicated. New discoveries in this area have many baffled at the little bio-machines that again are hard to refute the design issue. I can tell you are well read in what you believe, I am hoping that you will consider the wonders of design all around you......more than that I hope you will come to the knowlege that their is a creator..... Since you are espousing a theroy and not fact - and I admitted to you that in my humble opinion no one has it all right, your comments about the impausibility of how God came into exsistance should be a non-issue with you and again I thhink as we discuss God the burden of proof is on you not me....His evidence and handy work is everywhere.
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

What I am picking up off your statement is the old (boring) additude that, somehow anyone who does not subscribe to that "ol, Religion" has to be programed and incapable of logical thought.

Now I ask myself, Which makes more sense...To beleave based on the Christian bible only...That a super being picked up clay and made us...Or to run with the idea that life has evolved thru a trial and error basis..of which there is billions of pieces of evidence to support.

It is perspective. You are willing to accept the word of people who thought earthquakes were an act of a god...Well...I'll be polite.

The statement that DNA does not change is absolutely ridiculous and demonstrates an ignorance of even basic Biology. Try reading real science texts rather than whatever your school chose to teach you. As Hill said, it changes all the time. You keep bringing up Coelacanths...Sorry but if you think they are unchanged you have been sadly misled. I happen to have some nice examples (fossils) of early Coelacanths they are hardly identical to the modern version.

As far as being true that it stays the same within a species, Every herper on these forums knows that the definition of what is a specific species is questionable since we see snakes from differnt genera breeding and producing fertile young. Hell...even Lions and Tigers mate and produce young.

If you read into the evidence, salamanders did not magically turn into lizards. The in between fossils are there. Evolution does not run at a specific speed. Change is often incredibly slow and sometimes a major step can happen in a few generations.

Ultimately you failed to address The biggest arguement about INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Namely, whatever genious you think created this world made billions of mistakes getting here-and they are in the fossil record. So much for the "Perfect" god-being."

An example I brought up earlier on this thread, was an interesting article in Scientific American about the evolution of the feather. News Flash! The link from Dinosaur to bird has been found.

Sorry but Creationism is a doctrine based on speculation unsupported by hard fact, but rather fact adapted to Christian theory.

There is a place for this...It is called Church. If you want to teach Real Evolutionary theory in Church-then I will advocate teaching creationism in school.

And finally my friend, Science is a continum not static...knowledge grows and ideas change based upon increasingly better ways to examine the evidence nature leaves us. But the process we call Evolution is present as a constant and continuing phenomenom. It just takes looking at what is going on around us with an open mind rather than religious bias to see the truth.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hey Frank, where do you get your fossils from? I need some for my class without spending $2000 for them.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Many of the fossils in my collection I collected myself in Florida georgia and Texas. The best(commercial source)of fossils is ebay. I have obtained specimens that would go on the open market for a couple of thousand for as little as one hundred dollars-and many more cheaper than that.

Be careful though, because there are some people on eBay that sell deliberate fakes-something the religious crowd likes to use as "evidence" that all fossils are fake. So choose with care.

One interesting example is the trilobites out of Morocco. Because they occur in a seamless crystaline limestone, the rock does not break in layers. That means that the fossils come out in pieces and the parts are glued back together after cleaning. Thus one sign of a genuine Morocco Trilobite is that when you expose it to UV (blacklight) the glue fluoreses.

There are a number of reputable dealers on ebay. Be sure to read FEEDBACK carefully before dealing.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

in evolution/creationism or not is a personal matter. Rarely have I seen adults change positions totally. To this end it is farely useless to argue the point. I didnt say debate because I dont think there is much debate about the subject. It is simply a case of "this is what I believe and you should too!". I think the original topic was to debate whether creationism holds a place in a science classroom. To this I say again,no. I really dont understand why this comes up time and time again. CREATIONISM IS NOT SCIENCE! I have stated I believe in a creator. However, when my children reach high school, then university, I do not want their time wasted in class with this ridiculous arguement. If a young person is too succeed within a scientific field he/she must learn to work within the parameters of that area of study. Evolution is an important theory. It is measurable. Whether I like it or not God(s) is/are not. Not in scientific terms. I wonder how many people would be upset if they were paying alot of money for their children to study astronomy at UCLA only to find out a good deal of their time was wasted studying astrology because a group of zealots believed they go hand in hand and forced the curriculum to include the latter? I sure as hell would.

Tom Eason

Hey Tommyboy-your right about your first statement, becuase evolution is a religion and a belieif system that many people are starting to via away from. I respect the fact that you have a difference of opinion, I just don't want your garbage stuffed down my throat, beacuse I don't think like you.

Listen your comment about UCLA was good--but why don't you call the Berkly Science department where there are creationsits teaching and writing books about the subject. How dare you to insinuate that a creationist cannot be scientific. How absurd can that be? You mean because you in your puffed up attitude have made a statement that "it is not science" we are all going to lay down and die? Why don't you read some of the excellent materials coming out of different Universities with respect to Creationism or a designer. As far as your kids go--if you want to be a godless human being and reject the possibility of God or that your "His" product then fine, but please let your kids explore some other science so hopefully they can have a shot at the creator,something may challenge your indocrination. I hope you can go through your life and when the end comes be satisfied with the thought that you are for all intensive purposes a godless animal(if you accept the pure teaching of evolution), without a soul and unaccountable for your life. As far as evolution being measurable, that is vague statment indeed, but I have given some ideas about this subject and at every juncture I have been blown off or filled with the stuff they teach you guys and deny factual evidences. For instance I can produce a picture of the tranisaur that is on the myciean pottery. It is not a dragon, it is very clear as to what it is. Your last statement was absured, liberal zealots overflow in the University system, but the astronomers I was talking about was not some University Professor, know I am talking about people that work in the field..........Since it's been some time since I have studied all this I will try and get some actual names and references for all you guys out there and make a post and then let he chips fall where they may. YOur right none of us are going to probably change someone from a evolutionist to a creationsit over night, but within the next 10 years so much information challenging the Theroy of Evolution will become more and more overwhelming. The burden of proof is on you, and the facts are coming to gether faster and faster, you wait and see.........my greatest concern is that you reject God by seperating God from science. Many of our great discoveries were made by godfearing people..... I will get back to you.... Cheers
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Phrynosoma.com

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I think you should calm down,take a breath, and reread what I wrote. I will try to lay it out in a simple manner so you can follow all the garbage.

1) I believe in a creator

2) I do not subscribe to full blown evolution. I also do not deny that organisms go through small changes and adaptations.

3) I dont think that religion should be taught in a science classroom.

4) I dont think the "I'm right, you're going to hell for having an opinion" attitude is beneficial.

5) When I meet my creator I dont think I will be sentenced to a lake of fire for having an opinion that differs from mainstream Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. You guys have screwed the world up pretty good at this point, let some others have a crack at it.

6) I am not going to call Berkely because no one there is trying to force their beliefs down the throats of the rest of the country.

I would love to continue this "debate" but I am going on vacation in the morning. If you want to push your beliefs on me I'll be the Gulf of Mexico. Hope you can swim....

Tom Eason

p.s. God bless

Guys... This is going nowhere in a big hurry. It is obvious that reptzoo cannot concieve of anyone having the intelligence or "free will" to have an opinion that does not embrace the religious dogma he spouts.

reptzoo...I as I said above, have seen the pottery you mention. That it is a T.rex is really stretching it. Since you failed to counter my points and Hill's about DNA and Coelacanths (which your information was totally wrong on) you seemed focused on the idea that we are all brain washed and you of course are 'enlightened'.

It just tells me that we are dealing with someone who is a bit fanatical as you are unable to seperate science and logic from religion. Think I'm wrong? Your latest comments betray you.

There is no Church of Evolution...No Alter....No Pews...no priests....No one kneels and burns frankensense or is asked by their god to sacrifice their first born to prove their faith--Wait..That's Christianity!

I love to debate with someone that shows some sense, but this tangent you have been on about how all of us are 'mis-led' indocrinated people, has lowered the quality of this debate to crap.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

dont do that.LOL

EP
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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

I noticed that right after I posted....HUMBLE apologies!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Wow, I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread but I just did and I am amazed. I fully respect the right of anyone to believe what they want but those are beliefs. Evolution is not a belief; it is fact. We may not have all of the details correct today, or possibly ever, but evolution happens. The whole coelecanth argument is ridiculous. Maybe they are not "exactly" the same as they were 10,000 years ago, they are very similar because their physiology works for where they are living. Sharks and crocodiles have remained relatively the same for thousands of years because they didn't need to change either. This does not mean that evolution is not happening. Humans have changed radically in the time that all of those creaters have been around. We needed to or we would not have survived. I am NOT an atheist nor am I a follower of Christ. I do believe there is a greater power controlling this world and taking care of all of its creatures. I give this power more credit than many "main stream" organized religions however because I think this power is very adaptable and willing to let things change for their own good. Beliefs do not belong in science. Facts belong in science. I can believe all I want that if I have faith a taipans bite will not hurt me. The facts are unless that taipan gives me a dry bite I am going to be in a serious hurt if I am bit. The public schools of the USA should not be teaching any religious beliefs in any class. What ever happened to seperation of church and state? I am so very confused by the state of our country right now.