Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What defines a creamsicle? Is it an amelanistic snake with any degree of corn/emory in it? Or is it just the certian cream color the amelanistic hybrid shows? Basicly I'm wondering what to call one of my new amel corns who has a small amount of emory in him. Heres a picture if it helps any.

"What defines a creamsicle? Is it an amelanistic snake with any degree of corn/emory in it?"

Yes.

The reason for this is so that as those animals which have been repeatedly crossed back into the cornsnake side of the equation (thereby losing the overt influence of the emoryii side) can be identified as being hybrids. After multiple generations of breeding creams to corns, the offspring will be not be distinguishable from corns, so this naming issue is the only way to know what one has (or might be buying).

Hope that helps...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>"What defines a creamsicle? Is it an amelanistic snake with any degree of corn/emory in it?"
>>
>>Yes.
>>

Some people feel that the only true creamsicle is a 50/50 corn/emoryi but to keep the presence of emoryi blood known it is best to refer to any amelanistic corn with emoryi blood as a creamsicle. Never any confusion or doubt this way.
This becomes more and more important with the growing popularity of creams, and the other emoryi mixes, and the increasing oportunities to get these mixed with pure corns.
creamsicle/reverse okeetee...A little light on the white borders but still one of my favorites

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

Thanks for the quick replies. I was thinking it was that, but since I dont have much experiance with creamsicles I just wanted to be sure, especially since I may be breeding him later on. Another question I have is if there iare any other corn/emory morphs besides amel, hypo, and motely/stripe? What are the possibilities of producing a double homozygous hybrid such as a snow (or would it be an icicle Corn?)?

creme-cicles are creme-cicle colored hybrids.......half and half usually I would think.half emoryi nd half corn.that way the good ,soft,,light creme color comes out......

if it is crossed back to corn as this one is it will lose all creme color and become an ""amel,with a little bit of emoryi in it"".......

and that is what it is and should be called...."amel with whatever % emoryi in it that it has".....

.......yes.....it looks corn....yes it will be lost to the market as a corn ,and someone will unexpectantly breed it to a "pure" corn and mess up the whole solar system........

but it happens every year........and the moon still rises.........

................

people just like the "pure corn" idea too much.then they say it's ok to marry any shade of human?????we don't want to be raists or descriminate againsta nyone.we are all the same.........?

they hate trapping and hunting yet eat meat and wear leather shoes........????????

crosses should be sold as such.,........I do.........

after the sale it is up to the next seller (if wholesaled) to be honest in the representation of the nimal.....
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>>and that is what it is and should be called...."amel with whatever % emoryi in it that it has".....
>>

I'm not quite sure what all your rambling was about but I did catch the main idea.
You think they should be called amel with X amount of emoryi blood, right?
well, I think this creates a problem.
Somoeone new to corn snakes, knows nothing about morphs, goes to a show and buys a corn snake.
The person he buys it from says it is an amel with emoryi blood.
I would be willing to bet that by the time the person gets home they remember amel but can't quite seem to remember that "other" thing.
So it went from being an amel with emoryi blood to an amel with something, to just an amel because they can't rememebr the other. So now they think they have an amel. Because the emoryi blood my be diluted and the snake looks like an amel they find a forum like this and say I think this is an amel what you guys think?
The people on the forum think looks like a corn, the person says they were told amel, the snake looks amel so everyone says "yes, that sure is an amel"
WRONG.
If they are told creamsicle they remember creamsicle and when they finally do a little research about their new creamsicle they find out it is a mix between corn and emoryi.

Creamsicles were originally named creamsicles for the coloration, granted, but creamsicle has since become synonymous with amel corn/emoryi hybrid and therefore automatically infers guttata/emoryi mix.
Atl east if they are called creamsicle there is never any doubt.

ten times better then crap like bloodred for a pattern trait.

So we have agreed to disagree.
My mind will not be changed and I am sure your's won't either.

And no matter what we say people will do what they will do.
Just remember whatever you call them, make sure any mix is clearly represented.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

I can totally agree with Jimmy, "Creamsicle" is a universally accepted term for Amel Corn/Emory mixes. Jeff's points are good too, especially in regards to what a "Creamsicle" was originally created to be. Maybe the 50/50 Creams should be called "True Creamsicles" ?

Can anyone really say for sure they have "pure corns"... Especially with any morph that has Amel. ancestry?
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Mike Heinrich
mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Can anyone say for sure that they have "pure corns"?

Probably not. Not even if they have wild caught stock, because there have been thousands of animals released from captive collections with all sorts of genetics in them, AND natural intergradation/hybridization does occassionally occur.

However, the fact that one cannot know for certain (short of DNA testing someday) that he has pure corns does not discount that it ought to be the right of someone to try to have them. It just seems to me that once the genepool has hybrid animals introduced therein in large enough numbers, it will be impossible to ever retrieve what some obviously want.

I don't belittle those who want hybrids. I just wish more hybrid breeders would offer me the same courtesy toward what I want in my breeding plans.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Is there such a thing as a pure corn? Beats me. I posted about the Charcoal corn down the page. How many true anery B's are still left? How many people have bred anery a to anery b over the years. Whos to say all the yellow coming out in snakes such as the blizzard is not a byproduct of crossing the two different genes. I totally respect the hybrid breeders out there. Some of the most awesome snakes I have ever seen have been hybrids. I am afraid the hobby as we know it will soon be so mixed up that you wont have any idea what kind of snake you are buying. Another good point for buying from reputable breeders who you know you can trust. The only problem with that is whos going to buy my snakes?
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1,0 snow
1,0 amel
1,0 texas corn
1,0 aney stripe motley
0,1 normal
0,1 charcoal
0,1 motley
1,1 oketee
0,1 tx rat
1,0 diadem
4,5 ball python
1,1 dumerils boa
1,1 columbian red tail boa
1,1 green iguana
1,0 leopard gecko
1,2 dogs
freezer full of mice & rats

That is what is wrong with some hybrid breeders...a total lack of concern for what happens on down the line.

That is also why so many of us are worried about the production hybrids...you never know into whose hands they will eventually fall, and they may just be as irresponsible in their attitudes as has been reflected above.

You say that some of us are just too worried about corn snake purity? Well, that's fine; you are certainly entitled to your own opinions. However, can you not see that a person breeding pure corns does not in any way hinder your desire to create hybrids, but that your hybrids sold by others as pure corns may very well hinder my ability to breed pure corns down the road?

Should your desire to breed what you want supercede my breeding abilities with my own animals? That is why I believe that hybrid breeders have an added responsibility level that they must accept. It would be different if hybrid reptiles were sterile, as in mammals, but they are not. The fact that so many hybrid breeders don't seem to care about the results of their efforts...well, that's the problem.

In fact, I have publically stated before that the ONLY problem I have with hybrids is the attitude of some of those who breed them. You just illustrated why that is perfectly. Thanks...
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

np
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1,0 snow
1,0 amel
1,0 texas corn
1,0 aney stripe motley
0,1 normal
0,1 charcoal
0,1 motley
1,1 oketee
0,1 tx rat
1,0 diadem
4,5 ball python
1,1 dumerils boa
1,1 columbian red tail boa
1,1 green iguana
1,0 leopard gecko
1,2 dogs
freezer full of mice & rats

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I tell people what I have and what I am selling.....whether it be het for this that or all three things..........people usually never lsiten and just buy what is visable to them and worry not of what it is het for........
*(as in amel aztec het for lavender.they are /were,,whatever worth $100.......I had to sell them for $15 usually due to the fact that it is an amel with an odd pattern and people do not care that it is het for opal /lav........)....and those that do care pay less due to the fact that Pa is saturated with animals.......

anyways.........

if I have hybrids I sell as such....after the dealer buys them from me I am not responsable for what they tell people.........

.**I used to breed Sina-Cal-Corns........they were awesome......and sold as a 3 way cross...I'll bet they were sold as plain old words as "jungle corn" alot after I got rid of them........the sinaloae milk did alot for the color reds.........

.anyways............I have 70???80 adult "corns" here and almost all were bought as "corns".............some were crosses......(hypo emoryi crosses or hypo rootbeer let's say) (and those ""ultra hypos"" that may or may not have something mixed in with them???? grey rat rumors???? bought from the king of ""pure corns"".and does he sell them yet??? don't know.don't care.....they are cute....yet act like crazy bastards........

.....question????........you have any caramels?? ambers??? butters??? etc etc etc from the caramel line.from the one and only origional "caramel"????........I know a guy that will not buy them or any colors from them due to the fact that he thinks they could be atual crosses with emoryi or even another sub-species.........wow?.how will we tell???.........
***(I own butters,ambers and caramel motley......I think they act like corns and breed like corns....))...**(yet a third guy says that the small clutches and huge eggs spells trouble for him too of thoughts of emoryi crossing))...

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.............I am switching more and more to balls..........maybe I mix some Angolans into it for kicks?............***(been done as well as bloods and balls...)..........maybe not............too much troubles...........

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