Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If you would just read some of the articles from the internet I have attached, it should at least make you think..........CHEERS!!!!

This is what I was discussing with respect to the Hubble Discovery….
http://www.bertsgoodstuff.com/cosmos.htm

Here are some books given awards and recognition:
http://www.explorationfilms.com/folders.asp?action=display&record=13

http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/READING/BeDBB.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/d_gish.asp

Article:
http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/Number7/Dinosaurs.htm

http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/number5/darwin5.htm

http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/number6/number6.htm

Many of the above articles are scientific by scientists, please enjoy and let me know what you think...........
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Phrynosoma.com

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None of these articles are scientific, nor are they written by scientists. James Foard teaches religious studies at Arizona State University.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

In addition to the above post I made,

1) Explorationfilms.com = religious group that produces films, yeah they have no bias and base their information on sound scientific processes.

2) Interesting review of one of the award winning books -"Michael Behe has done a top notch job of explaining and illuminating one of the most vexing problems in biology: the origin of the complexity that permeates all of life on this planet. Professor Behe selects an answer that falls outside of science: the original creation of life by an intelligent designer. Many scientists, myself included, will prefer to continue the search for an answer within science. Nonetheless, this book should be on the essential reading list of all those who are interested in the question of where we came from, as it presents the most thorough and clever presentation of the design argument that I have seen."
Robert Shapiro
Author of Origins: A Skeptics Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth

Read that to say, "nice read but weak n the science end of the argument".

3) The last isssue is on a religious organizations website and contains information about how to be a good christian...once again, no bias here! Also no scientific evidence.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

If there is a creator and you believe there is, can you divorce your relationship from your life? Some people think so.
I gave these to you because it was a smattering of some info, I want you to evaluate it not on it's religious content because there is little of it there, but for it's scientific content of which it is very well documented, and you know that contained in the printing of these articles is the actual challenge to evolution, so don't poopoo this, read the stuff and if you can answer the challenges (scientific) put forth to the evolutionary claims then you can clamor this or put it down. This was not about my bias, I told you I was once like you, and thought I had all the answers as well, but it didn't take me a long time to start questioning some of the things I had been taught. And you did sort of say a false thing here, as a couple of the articles are wrtiiten by scientists and men of high standing in any community, so the knowlege is there and the challenge is there, I think most of these articles were written without a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo, and if your a creationist your going to have a different point of view(hello), SO I challenge you to read Robins stuff as well as others there and also the Hubbell information is telling and has been published by others that are scientists, if you are that sensitive, I will provide scientific articles as well, but I think this information here would put my challenge and position out to you without stepping on your religious senstivity, now the ball is in your court and you can again blow me off or you could be a serios academic as I think you are and evaluate the stuff--you might come back with some intersting new ideas of your own. Listen I appreciate the exchange with all of you, I know where you are cause I was there once. Your not going to change today--but earnest hope is that you will begin exploring the information not because this is sacriligious (because that's waht evolutionist try and preach) but becuase I appeal to your curiosity and desire for knowlege to at least give this a try. ANd last of all--in my religion, because I believe this is all because of a creator or master designer--I hope that you will come to acknowlege that "fact" that looks like a hazy mirror too you right now that you can't quite see through clearly, but the acknowlegement of this one fact will change your life forever and humble you--humility is the first step in learning......Bless you and cheers.......please repost--I hope you are looking at the information and not blowing me off. By the way many of these people you call religious have debated and written books all across America their credentials are excellent-so don't use religion for your crutch to blow me off but so read the scientific information that is contained--if you never talk to me again it will at least give you an idea that evolution is not as solid and put together as you think, you have been taught by a system that is slowly coming apart and is finding it harder and harder to answer the challenges of new discoveries. In 10 years youir position will still be here but may not be tenable..........
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Phrynosoma.com

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If you were going to buy a used car...would you just listen to the dealer?

If you were a judge in court would yopu only take the word of the defendant?

If you thinking about voting for a cadidate...would you only listen to what His party said?

I think not.

Yet you justify your stand against Darwinism by researching and accepting evidence as presented by those whose wish is to disprove it.

Then when faced with the simple truth you fall back on rationalization which has little to do with the truth.

I see no one here (except me-an Atheist) who is divorcing themself from their god. I do see people who cared enough to take an un-biased look at Evolution and did not find it in conflict with their faith.

You keep acting like none of us have looked at the evidence and made up our own minds. That is an old trick I saw many times in debate club. It attempts the ploy of putting those on the defense that disagree, by trying to take the stand of the authority-a simple power play.

You were never like us. That my friend, is what we call politely-a white lie. I know this because the evidence you present is from sources that show you researched, but also show your research was under the auspices of correct Christian liturature. To put it simply, (as said above) you read your own sides's presentation of both sides of the arguement.

Again I will point to your lead statemnt. Guilt is a powerful driving force for change. At times it can easily overrule logic. Playing the guilt card (by the insinuation that the faith based people that have disagreed with you are divorcing themselves from their god) is sad and not worthy of the debate here.

Frank

It doesn't work here.

I put the challenge to you.
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

and watched some videos and googled some people and so on.
This is not meant as a personal attack on you or anything but you are quite hypocritical. In your post you say that you "were once like us" as if you are now on a higher plane of intellect or something.
I watched some of the videos about animals that defy evolution with Dr. Jobe Martin. Did you know that his doctorate is in dentistry? Id say that definitely qualifies him as an authority on evolution. I also spent a couple of hours reading some Darwin papers. Admittedly, I did not read everything, but you can see where its going very early on. Im just not quite sure how questioniing Darwins theories and questioning evolution proves beyond all doubt that there is a master creator. Even Darwin himself says he did not have all the answers. Evolution is a working theory. Just because it hasnt been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt over the past hundred years(which isnt even a blip on the radar in the history of our solar system) doesnt mean its doesnt hold some truth. Here is a quote from one of the papers. "evolutionists, in their attempt to avoid the Biblical account, can construct quite elaborate stories with their imaginations." hhhmmmmmm. I wonder if there are any other elaborate stories that people have come up with that can't be proven. Another great selection from these papers deals with ants and their mandibles. The author states that Chris Schmidt says that ants eveolved the mandibles but gives no evidence to this. Here is a mock exchange between an evolutionist and a curious onlooker they offer to us. (im paraphrasing here)
Evolutionist: ants evolved mandibles.
Onlooker: but how do you know it evolved?
Evolutionist: because I said it did.
I said so is not acceptable for evolution, yet more than satisfactory in religion?
Basically, all of this reading has not shed any more light on anything. I dont think anyone here would tell you that the theory of evolution is perfect. Whats good about it is that it changes and is aloud to change. You however, are not aloud to consider anything other than a master creator. If there is a master creator who created things so perfectly, why is everything so messed up? I am more than willing to listen to any proof you have in relation to the existence of god, but if your evidence is elementary arguments debunking evolution, that just doesnt cut it.

EP
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Occupants not paying rent:
7 balls
2.1.10 corns(candy cane, creamsicle, ghost, 6 normal, 4 anery )
1 pueblan milk
1 everglades rat
1 cal. king
1 gray band king
1 w. hognose
1 bearded dragon
1 fish
1 mouse
3.3 cats

Ok....where did you go wrong? You are saying I said that "I was once like you etc..."

Matt I was quoting YOU.

No hypocrasy here, but Me thinks you should reread my post (and yours) because that part of your response has nothing to do with what I said and you obviously missed my point.

Oh...And being a Dentist does not qualify you as an expert on Evolution. The proper training falls under the heading of Paleontology. A dentist could tell you nothing (for example) about a fossil femur. In that case he wouldn't have a leg to stand on (lol)

Frank

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

While I can appreciate all of the diverse views and the mostly civil debate we have had on this issue, we are really just talking to ourselves. Each party has their beliefs and they are allowed to have them as well as discuss them.
The real fight is about which belief should be "taught" to children. It is my job as a science teacher to teach science, it is the parent's job to teach morals/religion (or at least provide guidance). I have no problem with the beliefs of others as long as they respect my right to not believe! And that includes those dang Jehovah's Witnesses that knock on my door on saturday mornings.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I thought it was interesting yesterday I was researching the inca burial stone with a tranysaurus -Rex biting a human, and also if you looked up all the sightings in history recorded of Pterasaurs including of recent origin, it seems that some of the flying birds may have lasted into our century. It is interesting that inspite of your criticism, you can research man and dinasaurs and find a lot of evidence on the subject. I do believe we have beat this to death, unfortunately I think that this has now gotten inot religion, which is not what the original topic was about, but your insistance to degrade christinaity is not something that I'm going to get into you with. I don't care what you say about me....... I can appreciate your difference of views, I hope that you will be flexible enough to disover or research some of the things that we have discussed. In the next 10 years--we will all be talking about this subject matter more and more......THanks for the spirited exchange.
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Phrynosoma.com

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While I have ample historical reasons to look down on Christianity-that was not the point of this discussion. But as you said, this is getting no where.

You said I attemped to degade Christianity. Remember that Christians used to burn people who thought like me...I plead self-defence (lol).

I would say the same to you. Try exploring unbiased sources and opening your mind to the concept that Evolution-and Faith can be accepted as not being in conflict.

As others have stated here, they are not necessarily at odds.

Most of all...Please understand that the focus of this whole thing is about THE RIGHT TO THINK. A process that certain special interests are trying hard to corrupt. That is why the Anti-evolution people are trying their best to keep our schools from presenting evolutionary science in our classrooms.

If you want to understand what I am talking about, there is an excellent movie, INHERIT THE WIND-based on the "Monkey Trial" when Tennessee tried to outlaw even the mention of evolution in their schools.

It addresses the education issue more poiniantly that I can. Get the 1961 Spencer Tracy version-the Kirk Douglas remake is garbage (Douglass changed it to support his own religeous Bias (and thus took the truth of where the two REAL people portrayed actually stood on the issue out of it). The irony to this movie is that the so called Atheist lawyer turns out to be more of a man of faith than his opponent.

The Right to Think is in danger in this Country. The battle over teaching Evolution is just small part of that fight.

And that pottery..still doesn't look like a T.rex. You might want to research other large predatory dinosaurs. There is another species that looks a lot more like it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

We could go on another tangent but lets leave it hear, you have had your say, and yes I am for free thinking, and thats why I chimed in on the thing in the first place, I think finger pointing about Christianity or any body's religion is something that we both should be careful about, because sin is a product of all men, and the heart of mankind is desperatly wicked-as you so aptly pointed out several times, but that does not negate morality and truth.....Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.com

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