Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just found some mites on my yearling leucistic texas rat snake!!! Not just little specks some big ones too! There are prolly about 10 on her but god knows how many in the tank. How do i go about treating this. I know ill have to clean the tank but how do i get them off of the snake? Please help! Thanks alot!
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

Soak the snake in water and take everthing out of the cage. Toss out everthing you can spare and then go to Walmart and get some lice spray in the pharmacy section. I use Equate Bedding spray. It is in a white can with red and blue lettering on it. Spray this stuff in the cage before you put any bedding in. Use about a one second spray per ten gallons. Give it about five to ten minutes to dry and replace bedding furniture and last the snake and water bowl. You cannot get any in the water bowl. Use a 10% bleach soloution to clean the water bowl. Soaking the animals will kill most of the mites. After a day check around the eyes because any mites behind the eyes that are dead can cause a infection sometimes. The spray will kill mites for about a 1-3 month period depending on how it is used and the bedding you use. Remember that wet bedding will help mites breed so keeping it dry will help but don't sacrifice your humidity. Check al your animals. Treating your entire collection is a good idea.
Thansk Jason

ok, i soaked her 3 times. The first time for about 15 minutes and i noticed alot of mites came off. I rinsed out what i was soaking her in and soaked her againf ro 10 minutes and a couple cmae off. I soaked her again and nothing came off. I found some lice spray it says it kills lice, ticks, fleas and dust mites. Should i use it on her enclosure? And what should i do about her? i have her in a small 5 gallon aquarium with paper towels. Help please!

PS-I am gonna go ballistic on my breeder for selling her to me and not telliong me she had mites!
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

Those things are so contagious now I have to go clean MY collection out!! Ha, just kidding of course.
I think I've seen it somewhere in a forum, but I suggest against lice treatments. Mites are not lice, and vise versa, maybe this has worked for others, but you dont treat a runny nose with a bandaid.
I suggest the trashing of all the stuff in the cage, and clean the tank out with a bleach solution, as also mentioned in the previous post. Running the waterbowl thru the dishwasher aint a bad idea, or soaking any expensive non-absorbant decorations in the bleach solution is ok too, just be sure to rinse it well after a nice long soak (I'd do overnight).
If you have other snakes, I'd remove the infected snake from the room and isolate it. Keep your infected snake on paper towels until the problem is resolved for a few weeks. The snake may shed more frequently now that it's been infected so expect it to soak in the water bowl more often too. Be sure and remove wet paper towels immediately so as not to provide breeding grounds.
I havent had mites in YEARS, so maybe Im a little out of touch with current treatments, but this is just what I would suggest.
Good luck, and keep us posted with your progress.
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I think she may be starting to shed too! I dont see the tell tale signs like grumpiness and clouded eyes but since i soaked her some small scraps of skin fell off, maybe it's just dead, maybe she's gonna shed. If she sheds it'll be awesome cause hopefully any mites will be left behind on the shedded skin!

PS- I sprayed the cage w/ the lice stuff and waited about an hour for it to air out (just in case). I cant see any mites on her anymore (but that doesn't mean there arent any) hopefully i dodged the bullet on this one.
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

I could write a treatise on everything that's wrong with most basic mite control approaches and why most of them don't work and may potentially be downright harmful to the snake[s] in question. However, you've already sprayed lice killer and that can't be changed. For future reference there is a perfectly acceptable, safe, extensively-tested, and USDA-approved snake mite/tick control product. It's called Provent-a-Mite, and you can find out more about it at:

www.pro-products.com

The best thing about Provent-a-Mite is that it can be used to exterminate all the mites on a snake as well as in it's cage without having to soak the snake or remove cage furnishings. One caveat - FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS - DO NOT DEVIATE FROM THE DIRECTIONS - I only say that in all caps because many people mis-use products thinking 'Hey, if a little of this works this well, a lot will really get the job done!'

Anyway, a couple unfortunate mite outbreaks I've experienced in recent years have been knocked out in the space of about a week with the use of Provent-a-Mite. Also, in the three incidences I've experiences with mites, they were confined only to three snakes [three separate incidences], and because of the superior design of the product the outbreak never spread to other cages.

I have even used Provent-a-Mite as a preventative, treating wood brought in from outdoors [found in the woods] so that no parasitic arthropods or other creepy crawlies make their way into my cages. Read up on Provent-a-Mite on Pro-Products website and if you have more questions, feel free to contact the inventor, Bob Pound - he's a wealth of useful information regarding mites and their control.

Finally, snakes often will go into shed as a result of irritation caused by a mite infestation, so I wouldn't think that what you're seeing is too unusual. Best of luck in eradicating your visitors.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Thanks ill get some of that stuff for the future
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

I know this probably won't change your mind but if you take your can of Provent-a-mite down to Walmart and compare the active ingredients you will see the same names and the same amounts. I am not going to get into written rumor spreading of what I have heard but lets say it is not coincidence. I suggested Equate Bedding Spray and while I dealt with the importers in Florida it was the only thing that kept my collection free of the massive mite and tick problem that that side of the industry has.
Active Ingredient
Permethrin...... 0.50%
What does Provent a mite say.
P.s. My can says $3.95
Not trying to be rude but as far as I am conserned it is the same stuff way cheaper and just as good. I have friends that keep 5-6 year old cans of Provent-a-mite on their table at shows that are empty and have a full can of the equate behind the table and use every mourning before setup to kill what may be on the table from the night before. Whatever you use is up to you but I would like to see evidence before you say I suggested something harmful. By the way you are correct if you assume that I did use Provent-a-mite before I heard about this stuff. And the direction would be the same in use of either.
Thanks Jason

Jason,
Read the actual form of permethrin. Permethrin is a generic term used for the basic chemical compound, of which there are many forms. Provent-a-mite's is listed as (3-phenoxyphenyl) methyl (+/-) Cis/Trans 3- (2,2-diclorethenyl) 2,2-dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate Cis/Trans ratio: min 35% (max 40%) {+/-) cis and max 65% (Min 60%) (+/-) trans

Phew. Try and say that in one breath. lol.

Basically that's the concentration of various chemicals in the permethrin, and if you deviate from that you potentially could create a toxic chemical for your reptiles, or maybe something that won't evaporate as it should.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

It took me 5 breaths to say that

Anybody can have a table at a reptile show so saying that someone there uses a walmart product hardly adds weight to an arguement for it. The fact that they have empty cans of proventomite to view seems like they are kind of shady. In either case, there are only a few products that are meant for mite treatment in reptiles. Deviation from them only adds risk and while i'm not a statisticion (see, I can't even spell it), any risk is not worth the extra $5 for the proper product. While working in an emergency vet clinic I can't tell you how many home remedies I've heard of backfire!

What I really wanted to say was that the original poster with the mite problem should question where the mites came from and rectify that situation.

I agree that saying that somebody at a show does someting caries no weight but the person I am speaking of is a very good guy with a great name in the "biz". I would not drop his name to prove a point and alot of people use this product includeing some big stores in Florida who sell provent a mite in the store. At the same time who I am speaking of has little bearing to the fact that both products are the same. I was compareing labels while you were typeing your post. If you don't want to use it don't but don't criticize something as wrong unless you know you are right. Also it is $15 more and shipping for some. That and the time if you wait until you have a problem to get the cure like most peole do. I am just offering a solution that doesn't involve waiting 3-5 business days for delivery and paying four times what you need to. 3-5 days can cost you a animal if we are talking babies.
Thanks Jason

Ive e-mailed the guy about the mites, he is yet to respond. It really pisses me off that he sold her to me without A.) Treating her or B.) Telling me. Trust me when i get ahold of him ill give him a piece of my mind!

PS-I think the snakes ok, ive still got her on paper towels inher orginal cage but i dont see any on her or the bedding. Thanks guys for your quick responses it really helped.
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

He may not know that he has them, in all honesty. If it is just the start of an infestation, the eggs may just be hatching there the same time they hatched on yours. However there aren't the highest chances of that happening. Got a phone #? Call him. Chances are you'll never hear back from the guy, if he knows he had the infestation that is.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

i think i got his phone # and address around here somewhere, your right, ill give him a call i think...
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-Doug Daly

"Brian theres a message in my Alpha-Bits, it says: "OOOOOOOOOOOOHHH""
"Peter Those are Cheerios..."

0.1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake

Thanks I had never looked at a ProventaMite can that close but the good or bad news depending on if you got stock is that it is the same for the $4.00 can at Walmart. I am not going to say that list nor type it but it is the same. I held my can up to the screen to compare list and they are in the same order. The only differance is that one says "Cis/trans ratio; min. 35%( /-)" the other says 35-40% but I would call that negligible. Just some good info on a great product that is also available in a generic for about 1/4 the price. Thanks for going through the time to copy word for word the info.
Thanks Jason

Your "recommendation" can lead to potential health problems, acute or chronic with one's reptiles.

Provent-a-mite is a unique, patented product and not the same as any other brand. Our formula is not duplicated by any other company. Making this assumption can be a deadly mistake. Not only are you wrong, but your statements could cause someone to buy these other products only to potentially create health problems and even death with their reptiles (which has happened already).

This is like saying that laundry detergent and hand dishwashing liquid are the same because they are both "soap". Try to soak your snake in powdered laundry detergent and see what the "active & inert" ingredients can cause. There are different isomers of permethrin which all have different toxicity levels as well as the synergists, surfactants and other inerts (which make up over 99% of the formula), many which are toxic to reptiles that are used in these other products. None of this is or has to be disclosed on the label.

Different, more toxic isomers are widely used in many products as they pose no risk to humans, mammals or birds as a rule, but they are definitely more toxic to reptiles. Most of these products also use chemicals such as Piperonyl butoxide in their formula, which is a synergist that modifies and increases the toxicity of the active in various ways. One will find that most formulations use this and/or other synergists as it is much cheaper than the active and creates a more lethal product.

Studies have been done, and products are marketed, showing that Piperonyl butoxide as well as other chemicals are definitely toxic to reptiles, regarding the killing of brown tree and other snakes, and improve the formula to do just that. You can do a search on these products used in the South Pacific and Indonesia that use various formulas to KILL snakes. They are packaged in high pressure containers (like a wasp & hornet spray) so you can hit the snake up to 20 feet away.

These products can be absolutely lethal to snakes. Many product labels can appear to be the same or very similar as Provent-a-mite as to the generic active, but they are very different products.

There are many other chemicals in these formulas that will never be made public and since the manufacture did not make any claims to the EPA (or on the label) that the product would be safe and effective on reptiles, no such studies or proof would be required. Many of these inerts can be potentially toxic to reptiles and since no tests or studies have ever been performed, no one knows. Since all formulas are proprietary and secret, no one will ever know what is really in the can and will only be sure that the product is OK to use with reptiles if that claim is specifically on the label. This is why it is a federal offense to sell, distribute, offer for sale, promote or use any pesticide for an unlabeled use. The EPA enforces this, as using a pesticide indiscriminately for a non tested use can have deleterious effects on the site, host and environment and they do not want any such problems to develop.

Also many of these products are designed to break down quickly, which will expose the mites and ticks to a sub-lethal dose, which can lead to(and has with other species of ectoparasites)creating a resistant strain of ectoparasites that would be difficult if not impossible to eradicate!

Call these companies and ask if their product is safe to use on reptiles, and to put it in writing and see what response you get. Many people have learned the hard way that these products are not the same formula as Provent-a-mite. Often, these products can cause chronic long term problems, so one never associates the demise of the animal with a mite treatment done previously as well as outright death of the reptile.

Provent-a-mite is the only product approved by the EPA and the USDA, specifically for use with reptiles (no other product can say this). Provent-a-mite is approved for the uses stated on our label for which such an approval would not have been granted without submitting the required efficacy and toxicity studies.

The EPA requires very detailed studies done by a specific set of protocols in order to register a formula for a specific use. These studies must follow certain guidelines and conform to such certifications as GLP (good laboratory practices) or equivalent. We spent 6 years and several tests/studies before we received EPA approval for our product to be used specifically on reptiles. This was after the approximately 10 years we spent developing the formula. We had to show that Provent-a-mite didn't hurt the reptile, had efficacy results per our claims and did not pose any risk or environmental hazards when used per the directions as set forth in our submittal.

Most of our studies, like any other company, contain proprietary information, so will never be released to the public. However, there are a few completed, non proprietary studies that either have been published or will be soon.

What follows is an excerpt from a paper that will be published in the near future in a recognized scientific journal. Until it is published, we can't provide any additional information.

"...However, it was realized that different formulations of acaricides contain different ingredients in addition to the active compound, some of which might be toxic to reptiles. For example, Piperonyl butoxide, added to some formulations as a synergist, has been associated with snake mortality.
Therefore, commercially available permethrin formulations were examined and only one, a patented formulation containing 0.5% permethrin called Provent-a-mite™(Pro Products, Mahopac, New York), was found which had been prepared specifically for use on reptiles and which had been marketed in the United States for several years as an acaricide for control of mites and ticks that feed on reptiles. The clinical effects of application of Provent-a-mite™ were studied on three species of reptiles by direct application to African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata) and by application to the bedding of rosy boas (Lichanura trivirgata) and green iguanas (Iguana iguana), using on each occasion 10 times the recommended dosage every fifth day for a total of six applications. Despite the excessive doses of acaricides applied, no evidence of toxic reactions related to treatment with the permethrin formulation was found in any of the three species of reptiles treated, suggesting that Provent-a-mite™ is a safe product to use as an acaricide for control of ticks on tortoises, snakes and lizards..."

People are always making claims about various pesticides and state they are OK to use with reptiles when they have no knowledge as to what chemicals are even in the formula. Even with a product that lists the same "generic" active, the active can be a different toxicity and the remainder of the formula will always be a mystery. Just because one does not see any negative outward effects after using an off labeled product, certainly doesn't mean that it is not causing chronic health problems to the animal over the long term or creating other problems, such as the potential for resistant mites or other environmental damage.

No Pest strips were once considered safe (and some people still hang on to this theory), but after many years of our reptiles being guinea pigs, it was found that they are harmful, both acutely and chronically. Some of our leading vets, including Douglas Mader as well as several zoos have confirmed this. Unless the product has been specifically tested and approved for use by the USEPA, no one can state whether or not it can be harmful to a reptile.

Provent-a-mite, when used as directed, only costs about 50 cents per application to treat a 2' x 4' cage and does not require the time and expense to repeatedly cleaning and disinfect your cages as other methods do. When used as a preventative treatment to stop potentially disease carrying mites and ticks before they can infect and infest one's animals, it only costs about 5 cents for the average cage. It has an average shelf life of approximately 7 years.

Bob @ Pro Products
Pro Products

Your "recommendation" can lead to potential health problems, acute or chronic with one's reptiles.

Provent-a-mite is a unique, patented product and not the same as any other brand. Our formula is not duplicated by any other company. Making this assumption can be a deadly mistake. Not only are you wrong, but your statements could cause someone to buy these other products only to potentially create health problems and even death with their reptiles (which has happened already).

This method is what has been used by myself and others for years with no problems in my collection nor in anybodies that I have known to use this. Also I have never had anybody tell me that they had a animal die from this treatment. Further more how can you claim that no other product has the same formula as yours when as you state in your post the inert ingredients are not disclosed and are in fact guarded by the companies to protect their assets. You can't for sure because unless you have those formula you don't know

This is like saying that laundry detergent and hand dishwashing liquid are the same because they are both "soap".

Come on soap is a generic term used to desribe a ton of chemical compounds.

Different, more toxic isomers are widely used in many products as they pose no risk to humans, mammals or birds as a rule, but they are definitely more toxic to reptiles. Most of these products also use chemicals such as Piperonyl butoxide in their formula, which is a synergist that modifies and increases the toxicity of the active in various ways. One will find that most formulations use this and/or other synergists as it is much cheaper than the active and creates a more lethal product.

Though not necessarily in the product I suggest and unless you have the secret formula

Studies have been done, and products are marketed, showing that Piperonyl butoxide as well as other chemicals are definitely toxic to reptiles, regarding the killing of brown tree and other snakes, and improve the formula to do just that. You can do a search on these products used in the South Pacific and Indonesia that use various formulas to KILL snakes. They are packaged in high pressure containers (like a wasp & hornet spray) so you can hit the snake up to 20 feet away.

They also use peppers in some pepper spray but I eat them to. What is used to kill snakes in other Countries not governed by the EPA or USDA have little to do with this matter. Do they sell those products in the U.S.?

Since all formulas are proprietary and secret, no one will ever know what is really in the can and will only be sure that the product is OK to use with reptiles if that claim is specifically on the label.

Agreed but the chemical that is active is Permethrin and that is a suspected carcinogen. Food for thought

Call these companies and ask if their product is safe to use on reptiles, and to put it in writing and see what response you get.

Yours is the only product tested for reptile use so it would be stupid for them to say theirs was ok until testing was done. You helped bring herps into the mainstream business world by going through with the test and I applaud you for that.

This was after the approximately 10 years we spent developing the formula. We had to show that Provent-a-mite didn't hurt the reptile, had efficacy results per our claims and did not pose any risk or environmental hazards when used per the directions as set forth in our submittal.

Right no other company will go through this time or money spent for our industry. Thank You for doing this.

(1)"...However, it was realized that different formulations of acaricides contain different ingredients in addition to the active compound, some of which might be toxic to reptiles. For example, Piperonyl butoxide, added to some formulations as a synergist, has been associated with snake mortality.

No mention of what active ingredients where found in relation to this study. If assumed it is Permethrin than no mention of what strength nor what percentage used Piperonyl butoxide. If it was used in correlation with Permethrin at all has to be assumed from this statement. The next line backs up this statement but there seems to be a missing line between the two.

(2)Therefore, commercially available permethrin formulations were examined and only one, a patented formulation containing 0.5% permethrin called Provent-a-mite™(Pro Products, Mahopac, New York), was found which had been prepared specifically for use on reptiles and which had been marketed in the United States for several years as an acaricide for control of mites and ticks that feed on reptiles.

Note this is the next line (2) following in original post(1). This just says that you researched reptile use for your product nothing else.

People are always making claims about various pesticides and state they are OK to use with reptiles when they have no knowledge as to what chemicals are even in the formula. Even with a product that lists the same "generic" active, the active can be a different toxicity and the remainder of the formula will always be a mystery.

Unless you have some special knowledge about the secret ingredients you don't know either. The product I mentionced has the same active ingredient as yours down to the molecular structural listing. (thats all those big words after Permethrin)

Unless the product has been specifically tested and approved for use by the USEPA, no one can state whether or not it can be harmful to a reptile.

I would assume this means you as well so I would agree.

Bob I would like to say that I have no problem with you and I only broke down your statement because you wrote alot of leading statements that can lead to false impressions. I don't know why you wrote it like though I understand you defending your product. I have no problem with your product and infact think it is a great product but I also believe that is very simular to other "off brand" products and I will contiue to use those until the price of yours comes down and I can find it in any local pet store. I have seen the off brand I use over treated by a short tempered acquaintance of mine and all animals involved showed no signs of haveing problems. The individual in queastion sprayed the animals directly for about 30 seconds each with the water bowls in the cages. I showed up a half hour later and made him clean the water bowls after he told me how he used the spray. No doubt the animals should have died but they didn't. They are all still alive 1 1/2 years later. I don't ever spray the animals directly so the toxicity will never approach what it did for those animals. I know it is a smaller test group than what the EPA would like but it is enough for me with all of the other long term "proper" use I know of.
Thanks Jason

Jason,

Your reply just reinforces my point. You don't know, despite any statement you try to make, if any off labeled product you are using is safe or not. Just because you haven't seen any apparent problem, doesn't mean the product can't be harming the reptile. With the exception of "I or someone I know uses it and hasn't seen any problems" you haven't and can't offer any documentation to back your statements. A friend of mine recently had 2 snakes die from pancreatic duct cancer. He has both the knowledge and resources to have been able to perform a post-mortem to determine the cause of death. In this case, he feels that his mite control method used years ago was the cause. These animals survived for several years with no apparent problems, but definitely did have a problem and two of them dying at the same time from the same condition is certainly more than a coincidence. The Sacramento Zoo also reported a higher than normal mortality rate when using a never clinically tested, but supposedly safe, mite control method that is widely recommended.

I and my colleagues do have a tremendous knowledge of what chemicals are being used in general in these formulas. These products, among other things, use chemicals that are of lower quality and purity, resulting in more impurities & higher toxicity's. They also often use a synergist to make the formula more toxic. These raw materials are much cheaper and because they are being used with mammals, they usually will not cause a problem. This is not true with reptiles.

This is why it took years to create a formula that used chemicals that would not cause a problem, both alone and when they were added to other ingredients which can change the properties and toxicity of the overall formula. Other products could never be approved for use with reptiles because the studies required by the USEPA before a product is given an approval would disclose that many of the chemicals or isomers being used can be harmful. Such a formula would have to list such chemicals as an active, since they would have a deleterious effect on the reptile and therefore not receive such approval. These products were only tested for uses associated with mammals and did not have to show that they would not be harmful to reptiles, so none of these ingredients would have to be listed as an active.

You claim Provent-a-mite is identical to other products by stating that our active is the same, yet offer no credentials or proof to back up this statement. If you understood the active, you would know that there is a range the active can be within. The label doesn't tell anything more than the active is within this range, not the purity, quality or toxicity of the active or the other 99.5% of what is in the can. The higher limits of this range can definitely be toxic to reptiles and is also cheaper to purchase. We pay more for our active alone than what the entire formula costs to manufacture for other brands. I can also tell you that all of the inerts of our formula are food grade, FDA approved ingredients. There is also a problem with much more toxic molecules being sold by some sources and the manufactures aren't even aware of this. This is because the EPA isn't performing Q&A testing on the currently produced sources which can and have been shown to be of much lower purity and quality than the data submitted, resulting in a much more toxic molecule. Manufactures are not aware of this and even if their product used a less toxic molecule in the past, is no guarantee that the same molecule is being offered to them today. There is also a major concern about quality control of these products. I direct your attention to this link regarding Qualis and their lack of quality control. www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/g4802d.htm

I suggest you call Mr. Bill Napier at Qualis, Inc. in Des Moines, IA , 515-243-3000 (the manufacture of the product you mention) and ask him if their product is the same formula as Provent-a-mite and if it has ever been tested or is safe to use with reptiles.

It can take many years before it is found that a certain product actually causes health problems with reptiles as is the case with no-pest strips for example. Since no company ever spent the time and money to test them with reptiles, our animals became the guinea pigs. One would never use an off labeled clinically untested product on themselves, family members, dog or cat, so why would one want to allow their reptiles to be used as guinea pigs when they do not know what health problems can potentially occur. If these other products are so safe, why aren't the manufactures going to the EPA and getting a reptile claim added to their label as they would create a larger market for themselves.

We know how important it is to use the highest quality, purest ingredients and to use the greatest care during the formulating and packaging process, because we know that Provent-a-mite will be used to treat ectoparasites on reptiles, not a spray for fabrics, clothes or bedsheets. One can use what they want, but you do not know what really is in the can or the true nature of the chemicals used and the long term effect they could have on your reptiles. This is why a product must receive EPA approval before it can be sold, offered for sale or advertised for a particular purpose.

Bob @ Pro Products
Pro Products

Jason,
As you are reading this, you are probably thinking a lot of it is propoganda for the provent a mite. Or maybe that the only reason they have it say "safe for reptiles" is because they lobbied the FDA and pissed 'em off so much they just said "fine take it put it on your can." That was actually my initial thought until I did some research with a chemistry professor at my college on this vs that equate spray and an ortho product.

They all 3 have extremly different properties, and he was telling me (as bob just told you) it takes YEARS for cancer to develop and be noticed, even with x-rays. If you just wait to see the effects, it will take years longer. A year and a half is hardly enough time to determine if it's safe.

I'm not out to chastise you publically, nor make an enemy... i'm just briefly stating what my personal findings were vs the provent a mite. $20 a can is expensive, but think about how long that can will (or should) last you.

Oh and Bob... what is the shelf life on a can of this stuff?
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

Chris,

Our official stability studies showed a minimum shelf life of 4 years under poor conditions. The average shelf life is more in the 7 year range.

Bob @ Pro Products
Pro Products

Bob,

Thanks for posting that info on your product vs. 'similar' products based on the labels. I've had this discussion in the past with other posters who've said 'Why should I use P-A-M, when I can just buy something else that has the same ingredient but is cheaper?'

Because you were willing to talk to me on your nickel a few years back out a mite infestation I was having trouble with [for nearly an hour I might add], I've trusted your product and the research backing it up. I've used it since for a total of three outbreaks involving only three separate snakes and I attribute the control and containment of the infestation to your product.

As a precautionary measure I've since used it regularly to treat leaf litter, dry grasses, and branches brought in from outdoors for use in naturalistic vivaria I've created and I've recommended to other herpers for the same preventative purpose.

Anyway, don't want to sound like this is a mutual admiration society or anything. Just thanks for posting the detailed info. Have you considered having that information posted on your site in the form of an article? In the past I've always referred people to contact you directly if they had specific questions about your product and its proper use.

I think the meat of your earlier post should be required reading for anyone considering their options in fighting a mite outbreak and especially for those people considering cheaper and potentially dangerous methods of treatment.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

I agree with your evaluation. I'm an old timer who used "No Pest Strips" in the past. I wanted to find something that was safer and easier to use. I needed it to be safe for me too, as I have asthma, and can't use chemicals that permeate the air in my Herp Room. I didn't like paying for it at first, but I know how dangerous some garden pesticides can be, etc, and refuse to have those inside my house too. Since using P-A-M, I've realized how well it works with my fairly large collection of about thirty cages, and feel it definitely pays for itself.

In this day and age we take a chance everytime we bring a new animal into our collections. I can't believe how many snakes have mites that I find at shows and sometimes ones that are delivered through the mail, etc. I insist on my collection being free of any parasites. I will not send an animal to any other person that I don't feel is absolutely clean. That's why I am constantly checking my snakes for any hitchhikers.

I've had mites in my collection before. Once I bought a baby corn snake, kept it in quarantine two weeks (not long enough), and brought it into the snake room to keep it warmer. The extra warmth caused a mite hatch and eventually I had to treat every cage in the room. It's not easy to get rid of mites, but P-A-M has worked for me. If you follow the directions, and do it right, two applications will do the job. One can will take care of my collection several times.

Now-a-days, I keep a can of P-A-M handy and use it to treat a cage anytime I get a new snake in, no matter who it's from. I treat the holding tank before getting the new snake and put it in when it arrives. In about ten days I treat the cage again. I now quarantine for at least a month. Not seeing any mites or signs of a hatch, I will then bring the animal into my Herp Room, but still keep it across the room from the others. My collection has not seen a single mite ever since I started using these methods and I rarely have to buy a new can of P-A-M.

There are lots of other products out there, but I don't think any of them work as good or are as safe as this one. I especially recommend it for hobbyists with smallish collections. I would also recommend that you treat cages in the morning, or overnight, and not use them until the evening or next day. The treatment will continue to work and kill bugs for at least a week. I do my second treatment after seven to ten days. The mites never survive two treatments this close together unless you keep the eggs cool, so they won't hatch. I always check my collection after winter brumations, just to make sure. It's a habit now.

Mites are an insidious pest. They can be almost impossible to get rid of and may last for years for some people. Every new herper should get trained on how to get rid of them and prevent further attacks. Good luck with this everybody and hope your collections stay healthy forever.

Regards...TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

Terry,

Good anecdotes for supporting the use of P-A-M as well. You mentioned

>They can be almost impossible to get rid of and may last for years for some people.

The beauty [as you and I know] of P-A-M is that you CAN get rid of mites, usually in less than two weeks, not to mention being able to erradicate an infestation collection-wide. At least you and I and a few others know of the worth of this product. We can only hope others read our reviews and don't take short cuts. I looked on Dave Barker's site a couple days ago, because I remembered he had and article detailing how to combat mite infestation. Surprisingly, he still advocates the use of No-Pest strips! To say I was flabbergasted is an understatement - with a product like P-A-M available, No-Pest strips just seem so 'stone-age', and given the evidence of deaths and cancers related to organophosphate exposure among herps - sheesh... you'd have to be an idiot to still be using them.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Ive used sevin dust %5 for over 22 years without a problem.You can get a can of it for 7-9 dollars at wallyworld in the garden section.Ive treated everything from burmese to monitors with it and it works.You can apply using the shake and bake method or like I do by hand.Sprinkling a little underneath the substrate and around the cage will keep them from spreading .One can will treat around a 1000 ratsnakes/corns etc....Paul