Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i was chatting recently with another bcc keeper like myself recently about what we thought about the feeding habits of these snakes in the wild . and he gave me a pretty good theory as to why most import snake sthat are over3 to 4 feet only accept dead food items.. he said(and id have to agree) that these animals go thru alot in the wild .. attacks by predators etc etc .. and thus learn how to take better care of themselves and find other means of finding food and not risking their lives in the process. and ive noticed this cause i have gotten a few imports myself .. and when they are juveniles their instincts are there and will eat great and aggressively on live food.. i think its cause these guys still havent gone thru what most larger ones have gone thru . after such attacks im sure some of these animals get very stressed out and develop a sort of fear towards live prey. thus makin em go thru a little bit of hunger forcing them to sooner or later scavenge for already killed food. and after a few times of resorting to this, develop the smarts to eat "ONLY" killed food. i believe in this cause most that i have gotten are great feeders but on pre-killed food unless really young juvies. i have around 10 juvies that feed awsome on live food if offered .. then , most of the ones over 4 feet will feed well , only on food that is pre killed . and occasionally on live food here and there . then on the other hand i have 7' 9' and a few 6 ' snakes that will only eat pre-killed. if i stick 20 pre killed ratts in there they will eat em .. now if i stick in a live one , they act totally terrified of em . this is just an observation that came up a few days ago and something i "HAVE" noticed with 80% of larger imports . im in no way saying some large imports "WONT" eat live. but most do eat pre killed most of the time. just an observation .. i dunno , what do you guys think ?
-----
NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

I think a lot of this is the stress factor. Adult imports of any reptile generally find captivity harder to adjust too. A stressed out snake does not want to deal with a nosy rat.

With that said, snakes are smart enough to know that prekilled food is still fine to eat.

As far as suggesting that boas naturally convert to prekilled animals in the wild, I think this is a little premature based on insignificant amounts of experience. The move to captivity is just to much of a factor. To support this theory, wild specimens would have to be observed, and possibly tested with feeding trials in wild pens.

you dont think a boa constrictor goes thru stress in the wild ? being attacked on a daily basis by other predators etc etc ? most of these snakes are small enough to be the dinner of most animals out in the wild. not only untill they reach a formidable size will they be big enough to be atleast 60% safe.. but from the time a boa constrictor is born until it is atleast 4 to 6 years old will it be big enough to not be someone elses food. in those years i can only imagine the things they go thru. just an opinion.. but you are correct , we wont know for sure unless studies are done. thanks for your reply , koky

-----
NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

I personally think that no stress in the wild even comes close to the importation process. In a habitat that the animal is used to, it is alert and ready, but not necessarily stressed. Remember that neonate and young boas are harder to find because they are chill'n in a hide spot somewhere. Being largely sit and wait predators (assumption from what I've read) they arn't out and about to have predators chasing them. This is also a possible reason why they grow slower in the wild; prey isn't handed to them.

I think your theory is pretty good, however, I think a boa would have a hard time finding enough prekilled food in the wild. Maybe some living near a road would feed on some road kill, but I do not think a boa living say 10 miles off any road would find enough dead animals to sustain itself, if you take into account that we have been told they are sit and wait predators, that would make it even harder for them to find enough. In my opinion, the fact that they eat prekilled in captivity has more to do with the added stress and the fact they do not want another animal"in their face". Just my thoughts though. Craig

I never would have given this a second thought until I read your post. I have had two large imported BCC and I observed the same thing. If I put a live rat in they would go into a defensive possition, mouth open hissing the whole nine yards. And yet every time I stuck a F/T rat in they would eat it... The adult male I got in was in way bad shape and I had to work very hard on trying to bring him back, he had worms, he was severly under weight, regurged almost every meal he took, it was so hard on both of us. I had to give him panicure, flagyl and eventualy drocit...He had a load of tape worms like I have never seen. All in all it took me a year and a half and at that point he was holding down everything I gave him... (always frozen thawed)It was always hit and miss with him if he saw me within three days of eating his food it was coming back up for sure... Some of those imports can sure stress you out. But on the other had a female Guyana I had did great from the get go... She also only ever took frozen thawed...
Thanks Josh

I would like to hear more on this and be curious to know what wild snakes primarily feed on. Of course they are not going to only take dead prey in the wild, but I think they will take what ever they can find. Dead or alive. And maybe the fact that as adults they are both predator and scavenger, is why they take fresh killed or F/T so easily. Stess I am sure also has a lot do with it.
Thanks Josh

I am not supposed to post here anymore, but you are bringing up our conversation from the other day and I want to bring up something that you did not reinerate on. When we were talking about this subject, I said; " They probably do sacavenge more so than most people would think, but that if the truth be known it is more than likely the lack of room in an enclosure and the animal not feeling the security of being able to ambush properly that causes alot of them to only except dead prey. " That, in itself is reason to not want to risk injury. As we were discussing, it is just one more humbling example, that shows us that there are still many things to learn about the behaviors and hibits of these animals.When it comes down to it, I am sure it is a combination of things and the most rational being; " occasional scavengers in the wild and lack of security and not enough room to ambush in captivity. " Almost all of the imports that I have had over the years have always prefered a hid box or they stay under their paper, only coming out to drink or hunt at night.If we built a cage 12ft long 4ft wide 4ft tall with ledges and put lets say a six foot import in it and throwed in a live rat a few days later, we may see a whole different scenario unfold. Hmmmm? This may be a worthwhile project to try. I am sure when I am done, I could sell the cage to some kid with a retic. Talk later Marlon.......John " Johnson Herp "

I agree, I think it has to do with the amount of space we provide them with. I would like to see a BCC in a large planted room and watch them ambush prey like they do in the wild. If anyone builds one or keeps their redtails this way I would like to see pics.
Mine always were in their hide boxes...
One more thing I noticed was my imports always seem to be more intellegent and aware of there surroundings than any c.b. animal. Looking at an animal that has been in the wild is completly different than looking at one that has spent it's entire life in captivety. I am sure this comes from years of prey and predation in the wild...Just an observation.
Josh

it was a rather long conversation and was hard to remember every detail.. but you know what ? before that day i had never really paid much attention to this subject. im 30 years old and have kept boids for over 15 years since i was a kid and never paid attention.. lol thats crazy. but the conversation we had was very intresting and put many things to work in my head. i know that everyone on here has their own theory. but i dont believe anyone is right or wrong on this subject.. lee barrie just posted his own views on this , which i dont agree 100% but he does make some very valid points. it would be intresting to see a documentary made about this subject.. even tho i know it would probably take years and years to get accurate information on this subject. hopefully someone on here that has the capabilities to do this is reading this forum and decides to make one. that would be intresting to say the least.. once again , im not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here, as many have made valid points as to why they believe what they believe. but truth is "none of us really know"..lol .

and john btw.. that big 10 foot female is in an outside enclosure with a heated cave i made myself (not that she needs it. its 88 degrees here today in the shade ) and a huge pool and is planted. with all small trees, brushes and is about 30' by 30 ' and has plenty of hiding places . i havent tried to feed her yet but will this coming weekend . maybe i should try live just to see what happens ? again , thanks everyone for your input .. all very intresting
-----
NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

Let me first start out by saying that wc B.c.c. over about 3' are extermely problematic at best. While I have produced a couple litters out of wc adults, I certainly wouldn't recommend them to anyone else & would never purchase one again. My findings are that only 1-2 out of 10 ever ends up being worth a darn & for me about 3 out of those 10 will eventually die. The question is why is this the case & is this true of other species of reptiles as well? It most definately is. I've worked with tons of wc animals representing dozens of different species & the adults are always much more difficult than babies. Adults simply don't take stress as well as a baby. This can seen with most any species of animal you can think of. I've seen people raise baby squirrels that turned out to be nice adults. Try that with a wc adult squirrel. ouch.

As far as B.c.c. feeding habits in the wild, they are primarily ambush hunters. Predation of an adult boa would be very rare. The only animal that might decide to tackle one would be a jaguar & he would have to be very hungry. I don't see the boa surviving either. Therfore there would be no reason to resort to feeding on carrion. Not to mention the fact that there isn't any pre-killed food items laying about the jungle. After a week of slogging through the jungles of Peru morning, noon & night a couple months ago, there was absolutely 0 dead animals found laying around. The closest was the bones of a sloth that apparently fell from a tree a month or so earlier. If something just up & dies there, it would fall to the forest floor & quickly be devoured by the hoards of evil insects.

The scars that are found on many wc boas generally result from the capture of the animal. The natives who capture the animals generally don't have convient snake bags. What they do is put a wire around the snakes neck & attach the other end to a stick. Talk about stress. The poor animals could be this way for a week or more.

Hope this bit of rambling helps

Lee

Your opinions are appreciated and I, like yourself have sweated a few times in the Jungle. As you already know Lee, you can spend months in the Jungle dedicating 18hrs a day to study and observation and still only scratch the surface on what can be seen and discovered. That is why, I wanted to make clear, mine and Marlons discussion and reinerate that; " scavenging probably happens occasionally, but that stress and not enough room in a captive enviroment probably has more to do with it. " Now, we can get a little deeper into possibilities and here is one on your belief as far as the predation theory. True, an adult boa has very few predators, but as a baby or sub-adult, a large rat and an array of other mammals could in essence " mess their little world up. " I believe that we can all agree that mammals are pretty intelligent ( even rats ) and without the ambush technique, most boas would starve. Now, who is to say ( and this is just a theory ) that some boas may have had a bad experiance with a rat or other mammal or even another reptile and it somehow physchologicaly screwed them up and some are emotionaly scared ( to a certain extent ) for life. You see boas come in from the wild pretty frequently with bitten off tails and scars that are certainly and obviously as a result of conflict with another animal of some kind. A buddy of mine years ago had a 17ft burmese that had a infection in the tail and he cut the tail off and super glued it. It healed up great and the animal lived for 10yrs after that, BUT it went from being tame and eating dead or live, to being horrible and eating only dead. The " emotional scars " of animals being mistreated ( including imports ) is what causes problems. My success rate in the past has been much better than what you stated yours were " when it comes to imports. " I have learned that patience is the key and my ratio is 8 out of 10 do well and outlive everything captive that I have ever had, " you just have to know what to do with them and for me, it took killing a few years ago to finally come to grips with what they needed or moreso, what they did not need. " Anyway, good topic and I think Marlo summed it up when he said; " Someone needs to fund some research on this subject along with others. " I learned alot about these animals by going to their habitat, but there is still alot of guess work and I suppose that there always will be.......Johnson Herp

The scientific literature available has published several records over the years on field biologists and herpetologists coming upon different genera of snakes in the act of consuming carrion in their natural habitat. I think it is quite apparent that snakes have no problem eating carrion in the wild as readily as they would live prey, when they happen to come across it. Lee hit it right on when he commented on the scarcity of carrion available to snakes in their natural environment. They are competing with much more efficient scavengers, and so the odds of a snake coming across a carcass in the wild would be very small. However, when they do, I believe they would not hesitate to feed on it provided the decay was not in an advanced stage. Additionally, I have had other people relay accounts to me over the years about their snakes eating prey items that had been dead for 24 and up to 48 hours in one case. Very interesting topic.

Kelly

np
-----
NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!