Reptile & Amphibian Forums

n/p

If I were stacking say 4 or more cages high in a room that didn't have heated air, I would probably go with Boaphile. If I did have a heated room and wanted to stack only a few cages, I would probably go with Vision. But hey, both will work for you. It comes down to personal preferences for specifics like door material (glass vs acrylic) and cage material.

My opinion is based on having and using both types of caging. IMO the Visions are the toughest cages around and are made of the easier-to-clean material. But, the tougher plastic of the Visions doesn't insulate quite as well as the PVCX of the Boaphile caging. The Boaphile cages are lighter in weight, stack better, heat easier but are not as tough a cage (certainly tough enough for a boa though.)

So there you go. Both have their good points, and both can work very well for you. Both have worked well for me.
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Mark G

I have had a large number of visions for 7 or 8 years and they still look brand new.

I could sell them for almost what I paid for them.

My melamine stuff is almost worthless after the same time period.

Animal Plastics out performs any other rack or cage products on the market.

Here's the link to their site I promise that you won't be sorry if you order an AP product!

www.animalplastics.com

Chris

I pride myself on searching out the highest quality products for my herps.

I can't for the life of me think of one reason why I should sell my visions to replace them with AP's.

Maybe I am missing something. Could you tell me why you think AP is a superior product or do you simply work for AP?

AP is an alright product.. Far from a great one.. Vision, Boaphile, and JungleHabitats are all better products imo (and yes I have an AP so its not speculation).
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

I never said you should sell something you already own it was someone asking about what product(s) to purchase to house their animals in so I recommended my cages of choice as did you. I was just simply throwing out another alternative. No harm, no foul. And no I do not work for AP, I just own many of their cages and racks.

Chris

Funny, I didn't read of anyone telling you to sell your Visions.

Tell you what though, I've seen an AP cage. I like that it isn't PVCX. I think they are made of polypropylene, a much nicer material in the long run. I'm just not sold on PVCX caging even though I have some and use them successfully. In other words, I probably won't buy PVCX again, or at least not for big snakes.
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Mark G

visions are made of food grade polyethylene.

There is no safer plastic on the market. Polypropylene is very similar to polyethylene.

>>visions are made of food grade polyethylene.

Yes, I know. I was referring to Boaphile cages when I said PVCX. Vision cages are great as far as the plastic material is concerned. I only wish there was a way to not have those ridges on the cage bottom.
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Mark G

I've seen the visions and the PVCX and I'm sold on the PVCX.

I am just about to buy some Vision racks. Why are you sold on the PVC racks?

The pvc racks that I have seen weigh a ton and you can't even move them around.

Why do you need to move them around?

Chris

Being able to move the rack is nice for maintaining your animals, cleaning, adjusting heat and especially nice when you have to move the racks to another facility.

Would you rather have a rack that you can't move, or a rack that moves around easily?

Curious to know what you consider heavy in a rack if the PVC rack was heavy ?

Was this a PVC or a PVCX rack?
big difference in the two materials in weight

As far as racks go i think the PVCX are the lightest racks with possibly the hi impact material used (brain fart for the proper name at this moment sorry lol ) its in the acrylic family .
other then that the next thingthat would be light in a rack would proably be the vision rack. BUT the PVCX racks can be JUST as mobile with simply adding a base with casters on it then you have the same ability to move them anywhere
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....My Boa Can Kick Your Boas _ss!www.cheapcages.com

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edited sig file 2/8/05

Alan,

I hate those brain-fart momnets...

... with possibly the hi impact material used (brain fart for the proper name at this moment sorry lol ) its in the acrylic family.

As already mentioned in my subject line, it's high-impact styrene. I'm sure you already remembered that.

Curious to know what you consider heavy in a rack if the PVC rack was heavy?

I'm not Mark, but I consider a rack to be heavy if the material used is the same weight as a rack built from 1/2" plywood.

When I researched building my own PVCX racks I was quite surprised to find that a few of the brands 1/2" material was more than twice the weight of the 1/4" material. So if you could build a rack from 1/4" material weighing 30 lbs, for example, the same rack built from 1/2" material would be more like 70 lbs (instead of 60).

I have the numbers saved somewhere. I'll see if I can find them.

But in a nutshell there are 1/2" PVCX products that weigh as much as 1/2" plywood. Not that 1/2" plywood is a great material to build a rack from, but my point is that there are inexpensive ways for the DIY-er to build a rack that is as light as a 1/2" PVCX rack, again, depending on which particular product a manufacturer uses.

But I'm writing this from the mindpoint of someone who has always built his own racks (well until my Vision, but that's a different situation). If I did not have the time, skills, or space, I might be willing to deal with a slightly heavier rack.

I do know that I've never seen a PVCX rack with 1/4" shelves that looked like it would hold up. Too much sagging. I would think 3/8" shelves at a minimum, with 1/2" being preferred.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

THANK you Chris lol

I was sitting here with it on my tounge but couldnt for the life of me type it out lol i was thinking stryofoam so hard lol

And as to the weights your are absolutely correct in difference between manufactures.

with the 1/4" material i think it depends on mainly the animal type( weight wise ) as to any issues with the sagging issues. Also while you may not think the 3/8" &1/2" can have just as much sag as the 1/4" due to the weight of it. I think as long as a rack built in the 1/4" has proper spacing and supports that it will fucntion for a long hearty life of use. If spacing is off ( to high over tub) then you will definately have issues when tubs are filled.
All in all i think it all depends on the persons ability to build thier own ,and what there preferrecnce is and the amount of cash they care to spend . its easy to say what wont work for you wont work for another person but it all depends on the setups . A rack in a room thats 65 degrees wont function half as efficeint as a rack in a room thats 75 degrees and vice versa . all in the setups .I could take a identical rack setup and put in use in NC here in a room thats 75 and a room in Arizona thats the same and you will prob have a different funtion of the racks due to climate itself. all in boils down to the rooms where items are kept as to how well the heat , hold humidity and function for a person as well as the animals in them .. the old addage " to each his own " lol

Thanks again chris
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....My Boa Can Kick Your Boas _ss!www.cheapcages.com

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edited sig file 2/8/05

I don't mean to "plug" AP again because this thread isn't about them, but since they are what I am currently using I will have to use them to explain on how I deal with these issues.

Cleaning is a cinch because I use tubs, and I sure don't have to worry about adjusting heat due to the built in heat cable. About moving them to another facility, that wouldn't be a problem because they are a no-brainer to assemble and disassemble. And because they are so easy to assemble and disassemble it makes it very easy to disinfect everything, lets for if you had a mite problem or something of that nature.

Chris

Is there a reason why thats a bad idea?

I prefer the plastic racks over the vision racks for several reasons..

The solid sides create a more secure feeling environment.

The insulating properties of the plastic supports a better temperature gradient than open style racks and are not as affected by drafts.

The entire system is more energy efficient, which is why AP racks only need to utilize 30 feet of heat cable where the vision racks need 60 feet.

In the plastic racks the heat cable is completely enclosed, keeping it safe from being damaged. This also makes the rack more energy efficient because all the heat produced by the cable is captured in the plastic instead of radiating out. In the vision setup a great deal of the heat cable is suspended in mid-air going from one shelf to the next, this is not safe and is not efficient.

As far as making an AP rack mobile, I have put casters on a couple of mine making them just as mobile as the vision racks. I talked to the AP guys in Chicago last year and I thought they said that they offered casters for their racks but I still haven’t seen them on their site?? I mite have to drop them an email about this.

I prefer the plastic racks over the vision racks for several reasons.

The solid sides create a more secure feeling environment.

It may, but with the Vision you have the option of either as they offer solid yet lightweight plastic sides.

The insulating properties of the plastic supports a better temperature gradient...

Better is relative depending on 1) the species being kept, 2) the temperature and vertical temperature gradiant in the room, 3) and thermal mass distribution within each tub. There are more factors as well but these are the most important.

The Vision rack offers more adjustability in any combination of the above three scenarios.

... than open style racks and are not as affected by drafts.

Again, Vision offers solid yet lightweight plastic sides.

>>The entire system is more energy efficient, which is why AP racks only need to utilize 30 feet of heat cable where the vision racks need 60 feet.

No, the Vision offers 60 feet so the user has more options. And going back to our exchange last week or so, efficiency is not that straightforward, especially depending on ambient room temperatures and what type of night-time temperature drops are needed.

In the case of night-time temperature drops, the AP rack will have to work harder in the AM to achieve diurnal temperature gradiants than the Vision. And startup power is what tends to pull those AMPS the most.

This is why when heating a home with radiant heat it's often recommended not to turn temps down at night or when leaving for a weekend. The system has to work too hard upon return and getting the temps back up takes too long. You actually have to pay more money.

Given how many reptiles seem to require night-time temperature drops in order to breed in captivity I think this is a very important issue to address when discussing efficiency. We just can't say one type of rack is more efficent than another. There are too many variables.

I like that the Vision rack allows me to adjust according to these variables.

It seems like most of your arguments are based on your understanding of convective heat, the typical way in which homes are heated. When discussing the radiant heat used for reptiles we need to think differently.

In the plastic racks the heat cable is completely enclosed, keeping it safe from being damaged.

The Vision cable could easily be enclosed once the desired setup was reached. It would be as easy or easier than adding casters to the AP rack which seems to be the topic which turned this thread into an AP vs. Vision argument.

This also makes the rack more energy efficient because all the heat produced by the cable is captured in the plastic instead of radiating out.In the vision setup a great deal of the heat cable is suspended in mid-air going from one shelf to the next, this is not safe and is not efficient.

Again, these are all easily dealt with and well worth it given the adjustability of the Vision rack.

Mark I fully support your decision to go with AP racks. But to be dogmatic about some of the advantages is unfair to people coming here trying to learn about what product best fits their needs.
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

"Mark I fully support your decision to go with AP racks. But to be dogmatic about some of the advantages is unfair to people coming here trying to learn about what product best fits their needs."

Chris, before I take the time to respond to any other aspect of your post, let me just say that I feel you labeling me as being “unfair to people” is a cheep shot. What is unfair about telling people about my experience with a product or my like/dislike of one product over the other (isn't that what you do)? In no way have I been deceptive or untruthful in anything I have said. So I like one product over the other – So do you, and I can respect your opinion You called me dogmatic, and I argue that the same could be said of you if we go by your definition of dogmatic. However, we both have given support for why we like one product over the other and are willing to concede that each product has some advantages over the other, this is not dogma.

Now with that being said..

>>Chris, before I take the time to respond to any other aspect of your post, let me just say that I feel you labeling me as being “unfair to people” is a cheep shot.

A cheap shot would have meant that I made claims without any evidence. But I was only responding to the claims you made without conjecture so the evidence was right there.

Hardly a cheap shot, but I appologize nonetheless because that was far from my intention.

>>What is unfair about telling people about my experience with a product or my like/dislike of one product over the other?

Nothing, but you implied that a certain product was better in all instances. To avoice this implication you only need to include conjecture.

>>(isn't that what you do)?

No.

>>In no way have I been deceptive or untruthful in anything I have said.

I agree. I believe you believe what you say is true. I'm just using my background to explain why it might not be. See there's that conjecture again.

>>You called me dogmatic, and I argue that the same could be said of you if we go by your definition of dogmatic.

I'll go back and read my post. I believe I used conjecture.

>>However, we both have given support for why we like one product over the other and are willing to concede that each product has some advantages over the other, this is not dogma.

That's not quite how I see it. I believe that each product has tradeoffs and that individual consumers need to weigh these tradeoffs for their individual circumstances. Hence my concern when statements are made that appear to be exclusively true, aka dogmatic.

Mark, again I appologize for coming across as taking a cheap shot. I'm sure you also did not mean to come across as dogmatic.

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I'll go back an re-write secions of my text that could come across as dogmatic.

New words in blue

Better is relative depending on 1) the species being kept, 2) the temperature and vertical temperature gradiant in the room, 3) and thermal mass distribution within each tub. There are more factors as well but these are likely most important.

The Vision rack offers more adjustability in any combination of the above three scenarios.

The above is a dogmatic statment, but since the Vision does offer the choice of changing the amount of heat under each tub I believe it's true. But AP does offere three heating options, I believe, I don't know if it's adjustable once in the owners hands.

In the case of night-time temperature drops, the AP rack will have to work harder in the AM to achieve diurnal temperature gradiants than the Vision. And startup power is what tends to pull those AMPS the most.

Since I had already previously mentioned this is condition-specific the above statement is not dogmatic. By itself it would appear so.

This is why when heating a home with radiant heat it's often recommended not to turn temps down at night or when leaving for a weekend. The system has to work too hard upon return and getting the temps back up takes too long. You likely would have to pay more money.

Again, these are all easily dealt with and well worth it given the adjustability of the Vision rack.

Well worth it to me.

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Ok, I think we are both taking semantics a little too far for the likes of this forum. No, I did not mean to come across as dogmatic, but I will watch that in the future. So let me restate my case:

1. I prefer the long temp gradient created in an enclosed system as apposed to the all or nothing style of heating you sometimes get in an open system. The Vision racks have one section under each tub where heat is provided; all other areas under each tub have nothing to radiate heat. In a system like AP racks the heat cable warms the entire shelf and sidewalls in a way that creates a warm/hot area in the back of each tub that slowly dissipates as you move forward.

2. I like the fact that a solid enclosed system cools down and warms up slowly. It is my opinion that this creates a more naturalistic environment.

3. I do believe that an enclosed system is more efficient at retaining heat than an open system and in turn will save energy in the long run. Both vision an AP use radiant heat cables to warm a panel of PVCX under each tub, it’s my understanding that this should take the same amps. However, the enclosed type racks also capture any heat that would be lost in an open system where the cable is traveling from one shelf to the next. Now I understand that the Vision racks can be modified to remedy the heat loss issue but you still won’t get as slow and steady of a heat gradient.

4. In an enclosed rack the heat cable is more protected, which is something I prefer. Again I understand that there are modifications that can be made to vision racks to cover the heat cable and I think that is a wonderful feature. However, I would be interested in the cost of adding the side panels.

5. I think the solid sides create a more secure feeling environment for most herps. Many people don’t recommend all glass aquariums for this same reason. Again I understand there is a way to cover the vision racks, but my point here is more that I prefer enclosed rather than open racks.

It is my opinion that both the AP and Vision racks are great products. I prefer the out-of-the-box functionality of AP, but I understand why some people would prefer the Visions. Yes each
"has tradeoffs" and yes each "individual consumers need to weigh these tradeoffs for their individual circumstances"

Thanks for playing Chris
Take care

I'll restate my case as well.

1) I prefer open racks that don't limit me to a long temperature gradiant seen in enclosed rack systems. I can have it if I want, but I'm not limited to it. I can taylor it to my needs. I could keep two totally different species in the same rack and more easily and closely meet their requirements. This is one of the reasons why open racks are so popular with zoos.

2) I like that in an open system that I can easily reproduce the often dramatic and quick temperature flucuations seen in wild, particuarly crepuscular temperature shifts that are thought to be closely tied to temporal mating patterns. I also like that I can duplicate it warming up and cooling down slowly. Again, I have a choice when duplicating natural environments.

3) Regarding efficiency, I'm looking for the most efficient system possible. Obviously, that means relying on room heat first and then some form of resistive heat for thermal gradiants. At least for a medium to large collection. This is much more efficent that keeping an enclosed rack in a relatively cool room and relying on it's heating system to do all the work. I believe this is relevant as it's what many major breeders strive for. Likewise, an enclosed rack in a heated room does not allow the boxes to absorb heat as well as an open rack.

So the most efficient system possible would seem to be an open rack in a room with a radiant heater. This will result in the most savings possible. Again, at least for a medium to large collection (one that fills a room).

It will also likely be safer.

But for people who only keep one or a few rack(s) in a large, cool room, they're probably willing to pay a bit more for electricity anyways. In this regard an enclosed rack is probably better. This could possibly be duplicated by wrapping an open rack in Reflectix, but this is not an experiment I've specifically conducted on a rack with short boxes. It does work for tall boxes.

4) I like to have access to my heating so I can adjust it as needed, even if it means having it exposed. I'm willing to deal with covering it myself to have this access.

Regarding my Vision rack specifically, I also like that it allows for the use of a misting system and would, in theory, allow for me to flip the plastic covers over if sagging ever occured. I also like that any sagging that might occur has zero effect on how secure it is for the snakes and would not effect the boxes sliding.

I also like the light weight and that wheels can be added to any of their racks.

And in my case I also like the expandability. This is a feature I'll be using a lot as my rack will primarily function for quarantine purposes and later serve as a means of separating my collection for feeding, ovoposition, etc. I won't always want it to be XX boxes tall.

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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

I think some good points have been brought out, in a civil manner, in these last two posts that people should read about.

Thanks for hanging in there with me Chris

The most expensive caging out there, but hands down the best of all worlds. Insulates well, looks great, made of light-weight PVC panels, heats easy and is very strong. You can screw right into it for installing heat panels for example. Awesome, but pricey.
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Mark G

LOL