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(sorry, this is long, but...) This question is based on the presumption ...

lkt Mar 15, 2005 12:16 PM

that most, if not all, beardies have *some* coccidia present, and that only elevated counts seen during a fecal (or elevated counts combined with other changes like lethargy, loss of appetite, and stinky poops) warrant treatment.

If that's not a valid presumption, this question is moot, but it's based on my understanding from comments here, some reading, and what *some* vets have told me.

Wouldn't it be valuable for a vet to take a picture of a microscope view of a fecal, to provide a baseline for a particular healthy beardie?

The reason I'm asking is that Kiana (she's 3) has been treated twice for coccidia, once when I first got her (and it took three courses of meds to get rid of all of it), then once again last year. I feel like the first time was probably warranted, but this last time I'm not so sure. The vet seemed to think because there was coccidia present, she should be treated.

Later on, AFTER this vet had left that clinic, I was told by the other herp specialist that SHE only treats them when they have obviously elevated counts. With that last treatment, Kiana went from being a very active, thriving beardie to being pretty much dazed all the time, but without ANY coccidia showing.

It just seems like taking pics and saving them in the animal's file would be valuable to a vet to establish some sort of trend from sample to sample and correlate it to behavior and other signs of good/bad health. I know it would be more expensive, but it's certainy achievable in the long run better for the beardie and probably cheaper than treating them for coccidia every time a cell or two show up in a fecal.

She's fairly small (about 16 1/2", roughly 415g) and I have to wonder that with her bloodlines (mom was a 22" GG, and dad was a 21" Sandfire) she might have been bigger. She's definately a hard brumater, fwiw....a good 4 months a year.

Sorry for the length...thanks.

Steve

Replies (8)

dragonsbynature Mar 16, 2005 02:43 AM

You'll probably get a lot of responses and opinions on this.. unless everyone ignores this post bc it's been fought over too much... haven't been on here in a long time so i'm not sure if it has or not lately.

Whether it's "natural" or "introduced" to the dragon market in the USA, it's a pretty common fact that all dragons have it or reaquire it after being treated to some degree as well as a host of other parasites.

Most fecals are worthless and inaccurate. We goto Dr. Stahl who is one of the best in the country... we had one dragon that we brought a stool sample in who tested negative for Coccidia and Pinworms... but as the dragon was on the table being examined went again and they checked that stool sample... it tested positive for both at extremely low counts... so one fecal less then 12 hours old tests negative... one less then a minute old tests positive...

As you stated, it is our opinion that unless the dragon shows active signs of sickness, weight or appetite loss, inactiveness, and so on they should not be treated. Their natural internal chemistry should regain the natural balance and even things out.

This is all critical on however keeping sanitary cages, clean food and crix, non-contaminated water and so on. Exposing a dragon with normal levels to additional parasites of any kind can and will overload that balance and cause them to go down hill quite fast. The problem is as with a lot of reptiles they can mask their illness and it can go unnoticed for a long time compounding the issue.

The problem with treating a dragon with the harsh medicines is that it can/will destory all bacteria... good and bad. Yes, the Coccidia *may* be destroyed.. but so has the good bacteria that helps them fight off that and other things. Hence the high rate of reinfection again and again... it's critial that after treatment dragons are given things to help replentish their good bacteria. CheriS knows a LOT about this I recommend tracking her down... she helps a lot of people with great info/treatments.

As for the vet... any good vet will keep track records of the diseases/parasites that your reptile has. They will keep that in their records and check against future visits. Most parasites and coccidia really don't need a picture to determine their count.. it can all be recorded by how many are present per whatever part (scientific terms i know nothing about) that is checked under the scope. This again can play into fecals being misleading at times...

Goodluck with your dragon... i hope it gets better for you. As for the size.. it may yet fill out and gain weight/length. Treating for pinworms and such with Flagyl and Panacure can do wonders.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

lkt Mar 16, 2005 07:08 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Apparently, as you alluded to, I'm being ignored. :P

Everything you've said is pretty much the way I understand it. It's there, but if you keep things clean, keep them "regular", and don't stress them out, the numbers should stay low and they shouldn't have any problems.

Treatments have been so hard on her (no appetite despite followup treatment with probiotics) that I REALLY don't want to put her through it again unless it's really necessary.

dragonsbynature Mar 16, 2005 04:01 PM

That's okay, I get ignored too lol.

Yea, I'm sorry to hear about your dragon. Track down CheriS from RR... she knows great information about healthy bacteria you can give your dragon to help fight off the eliminated levels. Hopefully your dragon will be okay in a few months.. goodluck!

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

CheriS Mar 16, 2005 09:06 PM

Brandon,

LOL... better to be ignored than jumped on, which is why I and others do not answer a lot of these anymore on the forums, I do answer them privately or try to get info to others when someone messages me or I see something that is really off.

I am going to risk answering this one here, as I think there is a real issue with this and causing many problems for young beardies that can be avoided with a little more time, patience and info. Telling others to take their young dragons to a vet within a few weeks, I think is leading to more problems for them, if the dragons are not showing signs of being health compromised. There is a general tendency to treat anything showing in a fecal by most Vets and I think if the animal is not showing any other signs, they should be allowed to try and deal with it themselves with support from the owners.

That being said I will probably get more flack of "some" people complaining I am telling others not to listen to their vets. That is not what I mean. Most vets do not know about reptiles, they do not study them in school, keep up with new studies or info about them, and rarely know much about bearded dragons which are fairly new to the US and captivity anywhere.

Warning, this is long

Since bearded dragons really only caught on in popularity in about the last 5 years (to the degree it is now), there are more studies being done on them in captivity and in the wild. There was really very little info but the basics available in the past on how parasites and meds interact with them.

Beardies DO show parasites in the wild, but they are constantly changing their "substrate". By moving around their location, they avoid reinfections, which is the worst problem for them. They develop their immune system from these exposure to parasites in small amounts that they can deal with and the parasites die off when their life cycle ends. Only when re-ingested do they become an issue usually and that rarely happens in the wild. In trying to duplicate nature in an enclosure, we are really creating a lot of the problems they are having..... you can not duplicate it or come close in an enclosure, you need to make adjustments since they are captive now. Since they can not change their location, owners need to be able to do that for them to keep parasites and bacterias at controled levels.

Most parasites are self limiting and can only become a problem when re-ingested. Example is coccidia. The meds do not kill coccidia, it inhibits the production on enzymes that the coccidia needs in the reproduction process, thus breaking the cycle of reinfection. Also, only as long as the meds are being given, are they inhibiting the reproduction. Once the meds are stopped, if the animal is still ingesting oocysts, he will continue to be infected and increasing in the parasitic load.

Coccidia reproduce by asexual reproduction (I am shortening the whole process for simplicity) they create merozoites that infect the lining of the intestinal wall, then "burst" and infect more intestinal cells, they are self limiting and die off rapidly in a few generations, so eliminate themselves. Only when oocysts are then produced (after several generations of merozoites), exit the body and then are reingest by the animal does the cycle of coccidia continue. That is a process that has to happen for the coccidia load to increase. The coccidia does not increase in the animals body without oocysts being produced, exiting the body, being in the air and being reingested.

Really good cleaning alone can control the parasite load and prevent reinfection, thus enabling the animal to be clear of coccidia without meds since the merozoites will die off without the meds. Only if the animals health is already being compromised should meds be used to assist the animal in coping with them. Meds often create many other problems that need to be taken care of and this can start a nightmare cycle if not supported and can results in a seriously messed up digestive system, effecting not only the intestines, stomach, kidneys and liver, but also other organs that produce enzymes. The result is an beardie that goes off food because they do not realize they are hungry, the digestive system is not working and it can take months to correct that.... There are so many other things that can be affected, including glucose levels, bile production.. and so much more. Many bearded dragons in the US have what is considered higher blood sugar levels than most reptiles, I really wonder if a lot of that is not related to medical treatment when younger. Some universities have done or are doing studies that link glucose levels with parasites..... as them being good for them and theorize that the lack of them may actually cause the onset of elevated blood sugar levels and other complications later in life.

Roundworms are another that can be controlled with cleaning. Roundworms have been found in some feeder that are fed to bearded dragons and infected them, like cockroaches, earthworms, and rodents, also on greens and vegetable that are not washed well. I have not seen any in crickets or silks, but that does not mean that can not be carriers also.

Obviously not all dragons under the same conditions will react the same, there are extremes both ways and what works with one may not work for others. From pbserving and testing every few weeks our ouw dragons and rescues, we now elect not to treat any bearded dragon that is not showing signs of being compromised. We monitor them, keep things really clean and do not allow them to remains on any substrate that can not be cleaned daily, except a sand box area, but that also is removed if we see parasites in a fecal till they are clear. Amazingly all but one dragon has cleared the parasites themselves without meds.

We also take in many rescues that are usually ill or loaded with parasites and many of them we have to treat, most come through those treatments fine now with support methods including cleaning, probiotics proper temps and good diets.

If anyone wants more details (I actually edited out a lot of info as this was too long), they can email me or check the articles on our site about probiotics, treating coccidia and beneficial bacteria under the bearded dragons section or the health and medical section.

Cheers
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www.reptilerooms.com

lkt Mar 16, 2005 09:56 PM

in addressing controversial care issues on this forum. This time, you've got at least one grateful beardie owner thanking you for sharing these details.

Steve

dragonsbynature Mar 18, 2005 01:21 AM

lol too true.. i as well left this forum for many of the same reasons the other regulars stated... just bored and passing through the other night.

Cheri, as always GREAT information. Thank you for taking the time to post it for everyone.

good to hear from ya,
brandon
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Dragons by Nature

dmlove Mar 16, 2005 06:29 AM

I actually agree with you. From my experience, healthy beardies do and should have a trace amount of coccidia in their stool. Of course when there isnt that is fine, but it is perfectly healthy to have a little. I made a mistake once to go along with a vet that told me that my Ralph had "a few coccidia eggs in his stool" and he should be treated. Soon after he died of unknown causes. Necropsy couldnt find anything, but presumed kidney failure.

I ask, in my fecals, to tell me exactly how many and what they see, and then I decide. I am soon going to be doing my own fecals.

David - KDRKreatures
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David and Kevin

KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

lkt Mar 16, 2005 07:11 AM

Thanks David, that's what I'm thinking. She's doing so well right now that I'd hate to have to treat her for something. Last time it just seemed wrong to treat her for having *some* present and to see her going from being active and thriving to being listless and off her food.

Hopefully they won't find ANY (I just dropped her fecal off yesterday and I won't have to decide.

Steve

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