Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, obsoletaphiles,

Was wondering what the consensus was regarding obsoleta purity and ssp. crosses. It seems like it's more lenient than, say, kingsnakes, seeing that bubblegum rats (of which I'm a huge fan), are popular. I just ordered a beautiful yellow rat, and am interested in acquiring a mate for him (was hoping albino yellow or bubblegum), but wanted to get a feel for what's considered acceptable as I search her out.

Also, is it now Pantherophis?

Thanks!

fliptop

Don't worry about what's accepted. Some people are fine with hybrids, some aren't. You can't please everyone with what you buy or breed. Get what interests you and take good care of it, that's what's most important. I think ratsnake keepers might be more tolerant because greenish rats, and other natural intergrades are quite common. It's hard to say something is wrong when it happens naturally. Then again, it may just be because ratsnake keepers are generally a cut above the rest Anyway, unless you're getting a locality yellow with a solid colored tongue, there's a good chance it's part everglades anyway (at least to my knowledge) so it's entirely up to you how strict you want to be in choosing potential mates. That's my opinion on the subject anyway.

I understand why you're asking because some kingsnake guys can be zealots insofar as demanding "purity," but you probably won't have as much of a problem with rats as long as you tell people what they are. Not that I'm doubting your honesty, I'm just saying that people like to be sure exactly what they're buying.

Insofar as Pantherophis/Elaphe goes, I've asked this question a few times in a few places, and my understanding of the situation is that some people want North American Elaphe reclassified as Pantherophis and that some don't. I don't know who's right, or even what the reasons are on the different sides.

You will find some folks who are appalled by even the idea of mixing locales. Then you'll find people who love hybrids of all kinds. And in between every other combination of opinions. And that's fine.

But I think the real question is what do you want? Most North American ratsnakes aren't very expensive. Even the morphs and uncommon locales are pretty reasonably priced. So if the average buyer has a choice between a locale specific obsoleta and one that is a combination of subspecies (and maybe even a little corn snake thrown in for good measure) he may go for the locale animal. So if you breed them you may not be able to sell them or even give them away. But even the guys selling locale specific animals sometimes have trouble selling their offspring. So it's more of a handicap than a sin. I do agree with the statement that whatever you decide to do just make sure that you let prospective buyers know the real pedigree of whatever snakes you sell. That way no one can complain after the fact that they were fooled.

Regards
John

Intergrades? Don’t do it. Why? Except for a few designer snakes, no one wants them. You will end up giving them away to people who are not serious hobbyists. These people have a tendency to keep them for a while, and then set them loose causing gene pollution.

There is also debate going on as to how related some of the subspecies are. Burbrink would place two Black Rat Snakes found indifferent geographical areas as separate species and would eliminate all subspecies. I have placed the references at the bottom. They can be found on the WWW in PDF format if you do a search for them.

What I suggest that you do is to raise snakes native to your area. That way, if you can’t sell them, you can set them loose without polluting the local gene pool. I personally never understand why people feel the need to change what Nature has cooked up. Whether they are Blacks, Yellows, Grays or Texans, they are all beautiful creatures to behold. Why mess with a good thing?

One more note. Greenish Rat Snakes are just one of the natural shades of Yellow Rat Sankes. They are found that way in the nothern part of their range, and they are not intergrades with Blacks. Intergrades between Blacks and Yellows don't develope stripes.

Burbrink, F. T., R. Lawson, and J. B. Slowinski. 2000. Mitochondrial DNA phylogeography of the North American rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta): a critique of the subspecies concept. Evolution 54: 2107-2114.

Burbrink, F. T. 2001. Systematics of the Eastern Ratsnake Complex (Elaphe obsoleta). Herpetological Monographs 15: 1-53.

Utiger, U., N. Helfenberger, B. Schatti, C. Schmidt, M. Ruf, and V. Ziswiler. 2002. Molecular Systematics and Phylogeny of Old and New World Ratsnakes, Elaphe AUCT., and related genera (Reptilia, Squamata, Colubridae). Russian J. Herpetol. 9(2): 105-124.

I've never kept greenish rats, but I've seen several at shows that had striping. I know there's a lot of variation in the yellow rats, but I've never heard of pure yellows being called greenish rats. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but this is the first I've heard of non-intergrade greenish rats and I was under the impression that they did develop stripes. This is what I've always thought constituted greenish rats: http://www.audubon.org/local/sanctuary/beidler/ratnote.html

Is there info about the greenish in some of that documentation you posted? Just point me to which one it is so I dont have to go thru all of them just lookiing for greenish info.
Here's a greenish I found in NC, which to me was always considered an intergrade, but Im interested in learning, so.....

-----
Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Tom,
The information you seek can be found in the Palmer and Braswell book on reptiles of NC. Click here and scroll down for information about this publication and how to obtain a copy. It is an awesome book, one that any serious rat snake fan or field herping enthusiast should be without (especially if interested in NC herps!)

Generally speaking, in the state of NC the striped forms are considered yellow rat snakes and the blotched ones are greenish.

dg

Sooo...My local greenishes aren't greenishes afterall? This would be breaking news to me, and would sense why I've been able to find some very light straw colored specimens. I need to compair to more southern strains to decipher however, as even the best looking specimens I've collected still have black speckling in the backgrounds between the bands, but SOMETIMES the do have reminiscent patterns, even as adults.

Hmmm...I better stop, my head is spinning...lol

So who am I?...see below...

-----
Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

One more note. Greenish Rat Snakes are just one of the natural shades of Yellow Rat Sankes. They are found that way in the nothern part of their range, and they are not intergrades with Blacks.

Greenish rats are in fact intergrades with the black rat snake. See the following reference material:

Palmer, W. M. and A. L. Braswell. 1995. Reptiles of North Carolina University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill NC. pp 162-167.

On page 165 there is a map of the intergrade zone where the intergrades may be found.

dg

Ok, that makes sense to me...someone living slam in the middle of the "intergrade zone"...lol, and why our "greenishes" don't resemble yellows in anything but striping and that they're Pantherophis.

This could get interesting...
-----
Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

Ok, that makes sense to me...someone living slam in the middle of the "intergrade zone"...lol, and why our "greenishes" don't resemble yellows in anything but striping and that they're Pantherophis.

So are you saying that you agree or disagree with Palmer and Braswell's assessment of Elaphe obsoleta in the state of NC?

dg

This is the problem with using common names in these posts. No one knows exactly what everyone else is talking about. I think that we are now all agreeing that the name “greenish rat snake” refers to black x yellow intergrades and not the greenish form of the yellow rat snake as shown in Tom’s photo.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=741123,741826

On the other hand, the term intergrade seems to get misused all the time. I have heard people calling Gulf Hammock Rat Snakes intergrades. Gulf Hammocks are a naturally occurring morph of the Gray Rat Snake that is genetically stable. That is to say that when you cross two Gulf Hammock Snakes, all of the offspring look like Gulf Hammock Snakes and not all over the map like you would expect to find in the cross between two yellow x gray intergrades. (The results of this cross would be expected to look like ¼ yellows, ¼ grays, and ½ in-betweens.)

I do have a question. Is there a natural intergrade zone for Everglades and Yellows? What do these snakes look like? What color is the tongue of those intergrades?