Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm putting the finishing touches on my snake room and am thinking about adding a trio or so of Everglades now that I have more space. They have always been one of my favorite North American Ratsnakes.

So I'm curious to know how many morphs there and which are true Everglades, not the result of breeding in traits from other subspecies.

I know of white-sided and hypomelanistic, are these pure Everglades?

And who has a nice bloodline of normal Everglades? I assume Dwight Good is the place to start?
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

No such thing as a pure whitesided everglades, it's an intergrade with a yellow. I'm not sure about the hypo's. Everglades rats cover such a small amount of land area, there are probably genetic morphs out there but there are so few, I feel it unlikely they will ever be discovered... if there even are morphs. Yellows, and blacks (the only 2 true whitesided that I know of) cover a much larger area so the number of morphs would be greater, i.e. easier for humans to find.

But as of now, no there is no such known thing as a true whitesided everglades. To my knowledge.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

No such thing as a pure whitesided everglades, it's an intergrade with a yellow.

What makes you think this is true? Granted, there are a few morons out there crossing yellows with whitesided everglades but the original strain was everglades rat.

I am curious why you think the whitesided everglades are intergrades.

dg

If you read further to the bottom of my post, I said none that are known to humans. However I've done quite a bit of research over the brumating season considering upcoming purchases (I have a whiteside black, considering a whitesided yellow and I wanted to see if there was such a thing as a true whitesided glades just to have one of all lol.) From everything I was told and everything I read, there has never been a wild caught glades rat.

Oh and Chris... I know Hawkeye herps will be producing some glades this year. Shawn's a great guy.. got my tx bairdis from him. hawkeyeherps@aol.com is his email.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

If you read further to the bottom of my post, I said none that are known to humans. However I've done quite a bit of research over the brumating season considering upcoming purchases (I have a whiteside black, considering a whitesided yellow and I wanted to see if there was such a thing as a true whitesided glades just to have one of all lol.)

Perhaps you should do more research, whitesided everglades do exist. Heck they were available in the trade before licorice sticks became available. Whitesided Texas rats go back even further than the everglades version, but are rare or non-existant in the herp trade today.

From everything I was told and everything I read, there has never been a wild caught glades rat.

I'm guessing that you mean a wild caught whitesided everglades rat? There have certainly been many wild caught glades rats, lol. I've caught a few myself. Everything you read about true everglades being extinct in the wild is totally BUNK. While they may not be as common as they were back in 1935, I can assure you Everglades rats are alive and well in south Florida. See Crimsonking's post above.

Many inexperienced dealers sell whitesided everglades rats as whitesided yellow rats. They think just because the snake is yellow with white sides it has to be a yellow, not an everglades. This ignorance of how the whitesided mutation affects the snakes' color and pattern is where the confusion lies and misrepresentation often begins.

Maybe Mark Banczak or Hotshot can post pictures of their Everglades rat snakes that came from my whitesided bloodlines. Mark's example is one of the reddest everglades I've seen and was produced by breeding a male whitesided glades to a normal female. Surely if he was actually a yellow rat then I wouldn't be getting exceptional Everglades babies out of them? LOL.

dg

awesome! Now I want a whiteside everglades! lol.. time to build more cages. Do you have any idea where I could find a pure everglades?

I never was under the impression that pure everglades rats were extinct, I know a guy with one locally and it's got such vibrant reds I doubt there's any yellow in him. Guess i've been asking the wrong people, lol.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

but I'll get the wife to post a pic later tonight. Dwights right, she's a gorgeous snake and show absolutely no evidence of diluted bloodlines

I forgot i had a pic in the Kingsnake gallery. Its got a little glare - sorry. You gotta admit, she looks pure.

>>You gotta admit, she looks pure.

Who cares - she's a beauty!

Thanks for the picture.

Thanks everyone else for the responses. Jim Merli and I have exchanged many e-mails so hopefully that will help me get some nice specimens. Now if I can just find his e-mail...
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Current snakes:

0.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Silver/Yellow)

3.3 Gonyosoma oxycephala - (Green)

2.1 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black)

3.3 Gonyosoma janseni - (Black & Tan)

Are you still breedimg? I was trying to contact you do ask about your glades awhile back and problems getting to you. Do you still have a web site?
Thanks Jason

If memory serves me correctly the original was caught off I-80 in southwest Florida about a couple miles from Bill & Kathy Love's house. It was brought to Gulf Coast Reptiles shop in Ft. Myers & turned in to Chris McQuade who paid the guys a few bucks for it & kept it, it was a juvenille female Chris & Sheila bred it, then bred it back to some offsprings & "Voi La" thats how the ling got started.

It should be noted the original WS Everglades seen in the attached pic only died last fall, she had consistenly produced a couple of clutches for the past 10 years or so. I had several of her direct offspring as well as some from Dwight Good. The past few years I have been seeing more & more WS Everglades with cleaner white sides on them.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers
Dean

np

So I'm curious to know how many morphs there and which are true Everglades, not the result of breeding in traits from other subspecies.I know of white-sided and hypomelanistic, are these pure Everglades?

Actually those are the only two morphs that I am aware of that weren't created by using other ssp. There used to be blotchless everglades rats available but I'm not sure how many of those aren't tainted. They may or may not have been 'pure' everglades to begin with. Kathy Love could give you more information on the history of those.

And who has a nice bloodline of normal Everglades? I assume Dwight Good is the place to start?

Sorry but I won't be producing any nice normal Everglades this season. Jim Merli has some really nice stock, you should check into getting on his waiting list.

One thing to keep in mind about raising any of the snakes formerly known as Elaphe obsoleta ssp. is that they change dramatically from hatchling to adult. So my advice to anyone wishing to build up a nice breeding colony of everglades (or other obsoleta ssp) rats is to start out with as many animals as possible. Buying a pair will not do if ending up with the best looking adults is your goal. I'd say go with at least 2.4 hatchings, or even 3.6 if possible. Start with the best looking stock/bloodlines that you can find and then raise them up for about a year or so. Then cull out the less remarkable specimens, you won't be sorry that you did.

Hope this helps,
dg

...even from my best pair I get some less than remarkable babies. To add to that, some do not "color up" for a year or so. Starting out with a couple pair is the least you might do. I have a male that was just a plain looking 'glades as a hatchling that now is a really nice animal. I breed him to my best female pictured elsewhere on this thread.
Still, at the low prices I think they are a steal!
:Mark

... how many morphs are out there these days or what is "authentic".
Here's a shot of a WC from near Lake Okeechobee that's my breeder female nowadays because I haven't found another female I like as well. CB or WC.
Anyway, I've posted her before and she's what I believe to be "the real deal".
:Mark

Man what a find. How do her babies turn out as adults? Have you had her long enough to find out yet? I never found anything that I would consider a true Glades in the wild but I did see a few out of the Belle Glade area others had caught.
Thanks For the pic Mark!
Thanks Jason

...been outstanding. Others maybe not so. I have kept only one or two and it's really only because I didn't sell 'em... (I just can't do less than $15.) so I hold them and a few locals will pick them up over the year.
I'll be putting pics up later in the month.
:Mark

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I have one normal female up to size that I am breeding to a Hypo male this year and a Hypo female to the same male. They are from Kathy Loves line. The best I can offer would be het Hypos. If Dwight is breeding he has good lines and I am going to try to contact him again now that you mention him and get some of his if possible. Check out the pics on my site and see if you like the look of the animals. Before you go, the site and the pics are kinda crappy and I am in the process of trying to redo it. Getting good pics and all that. So sorry about the quality before you even go there.
Thanks Jason
WWW.SnakesUnlimited.com
Here is a yearling male that I no longer have from my lines (Love's)in a decent pic