Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All nine Texas indigo eggs look good. Female shed 19 days before laying. Last year she layed 8/9 fertile eggs. Order starts in NW corner and goes down each column. M, your male is in there.

Congrats...looks like I will have about the same amount.

We should talk, about getting people unrelated pairs, (one from you and one from me) instead of a pair from either of us.

What's say we compare notes as to sex ratio and work out a plan after the hatch...hell, they should be hatching within days of each other. This could work out very well.

Dean

Sounds good.

Dean, you bring up a very good point. I will never sell pairs of easterns to the same person (if the pairs are related). If we can all get on the same page, I think we could protect some of the genetic integrity of this species.

>>Congrats...looks like I will have about the same amount.
>>
>>We should talk, about getting people unrelated pairs, (one from you and one from me) instead of a pair from either of us.
>>
>>What's say we compare notes as to sex ratio and work out a plan after the hatch...hell, they should be hatching within days of each other. This could work out very well.
>>
>>Dean
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Excellent idea!

It appears as though the number of folks keeping and breeding Drymarchon spp. on a more then casual level has grown enough to allow for the formation of a formal Dry "working group" to serve as a network for exchanging ideas and genetics.
I know shadindigo and OH were working on a Dry data base, perhaps we could convince one of them to give us update, I believe such a tool could prove invaluable to such an endeavor...

Jeff

Now you know I have tons of respect for both of you guys so you know this isn't intended as a slam. I just have something to point out. Perhaps I am entirely off too, so I'm ready to hear critical points on what I say.

If you two cooperate and sell all your animals as "unrelated" pairs from two separate clutches, aren't you actually increasing the likelyhood that the next generation of erebennus will be inbred?

If the majority of people getting pairs of erebennus are getting them from You guys, all the snakes from the next generation will have the same 4 grandparents. The effect of mixing your entire clutches would dilute for one generation, but concentrate it for the next.

I'm not saying you shouldn't cooperate "some". I'm trying to point out that selling some sibling pairs or lone animals also increases the chance that your snakes grandchildren will be bred to snakes with grandparents that aren't those same 4. Does this make sense?

I suppose I'm exposing my somewhat fatalistic viewpoint on our attempts at avoiding inbreeding. With so few individual animals breeding, we're gonna have trouble even when we try not to.

Doug T

>>Congrats...looks like I will have about the same amount.
>>
>>We should talk, about getting people unrelated pairs, (one from you and one from me) instead of a pair from either of us.
>>
>>What's say we compare notes as to sex ratio and work out a plan after the hatch...hell, they should be hatching within days of each other. This could work out very well.
>>
>>Dean
Link

I think that is what we all struggle with. With so little data available as to where most of our available drys are coming from, or, originated from, we are most likely developing a declining gene pool; its almost inevitable no matter what we do. But, I just try to make sure that siblings from the same parents are not bred back to each other directly which is why I will only sell unrelated pairs (or as unrelated as I possibly know). It sure would be nice to have an approved captive breeding program that brings together a sense of cooperativeness between state agencies, recognized zoos/museums/nature centers and private individuals...probably dreaming but it is this kind of collaboration that is going to be necessary for the long term success of this species.

>>Now you know I have tons of respect for both of you guys so you know this isn't intended as a slam. I just have something to point out. Perhaps I am entirely off too, so I'm ready to hear critical points on what I say.
>>
>>If you two cooperate and sell all your animals as "unrelated" pairs from two separate clutches, aren't you actually increasing the likelyhood that the next generation of erebennus will be inbred?
>>
>>
>>If the majority of people getting pairs of erebennus are getting them from You guys, all the snakes from the next generation will have the same 4 grandparents. The effect of mixing your entire clutches would dilute for one generation, but concentrate it for the next.
>>
>>I'm not saying you shouldn't cooperate "some". I'm trying to point out that selling some sibling pairs or lone animals also increases the chance that your snakes grandchildren will be bred to snakes with grandparents that aren't those same 4. Does this make sense?
>>
>>I suppose I'm exposing my somewhat fatalistic viewpoint on our attempts at avoiding inbreeding. With so few individual animals breeding, we're gonna have trouble even when we try not to.
>>
>>Doug T
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Congrats...looks like I will have about the same amount.
>>>>
>>>>We should talk, about getting people unrelated pairs, (one from you and one from me) instead of a pair from either of us.
>>>>
>>>>What's say we compare notes as to sex ratio and work out a plan after the hatch...hell, they should be hatching within days of each other. This could work out very well.
>>>>
>>>>Dean
>>Link
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I guess I looked at it like this: If they buy a pair from me and breed them, I KNOW that they are brother and sister. I can't guarantee that Steve's animals are not related to mine, but I CAN gurantee that my babies are siblings and related to each other!

At this point...since no DNA info is available, I think this is the best I can offer (?)

I wish there were more people breeding Texans and we could mix it up more, but there just aren't.

Hopefully, Virgil's big girl comes through again, but...still...no guarantee his is not related too.

My erebennus were produced by Dennis Sargent (sp?) of Florida (Tampa area?). I spoke to him about them years ago and he said he is an old friend of Chuck Elloitt's, perhaps even partners at one time (?)Since then, I have been unable to find any way to contact him.

Chuck, do you have any idea of the linage of Dennis' erebennus or how to get in touch with him?

that my comments are not intended to demean the efforts of Dean and Steve. They really are doing as best as can be done. Heck, they produced erebennus which is more than I can say.

Sorry if I stepped on toes. It was Not what I intended.

Doug T

I don't get my feelings hurt THAT easy.

no offense taken at all.

Dennis Sargent actually lives near Orlando. Last time I spoke with him was a few years ago. I am not sure where his stock came from but I do know that he was/is a perfectionist. His animals and cages were always in pristine condition.
Now here is some news that will make many of you cry. He had permits to not only own but breed couperis in Florida. He found out he was alergic to them and got rid of his entire colony.
Got to go for now.
Chuck

I know that I have voiced this opinion before, but I am a champion of repetition.

I would like to suggest the following hypothetical. Supposing one person had a clutch of unicolor hatchlings that had 12 good eggs out of 12. A second person had an unrelated clutch that had 3 good eggs out of 6. How many of you would want a pair comprised of one animal from each clutch?

I sure wouldn't. I would be a lot happier with a pair of siblings from the first clutch.

It isn't all that important that sibling pairs are unrelated. The overriding factor is that the first clutch came from a mother and a father that were both highly fertile, which cannot be said for the second clutch. This is captive breeding we are doing, and these animals are not going to be reintroduced to the wild. For us captive breeders, fertility is the number one important issue.

I am not saying that preserving genes is without merit. But preserving bad genes is just stupid. If an inbred line is twice as fertile as a genetically diverse line, then we should spend more of our time perpetuating the inbred line. Maybe then, we can cross one breeder's inbred line with another's.

Anyways, I know that this hypothetical circumstance may not apply with Dean's and Steve's clutches. Also, we should try to have the best of both worlds, high fertility and genetic diversity.

Nonetheless, for a captive breeder, high fertility is a characteristic that should always outweigh genetic diversity.

Robert Bruce.