Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a very nice male that bred last year and all went according to plan.

This year that same male started off strong but then stopped eating and starting sitting funny, meaning the first 1/3 of the body looks normal, top on top etc. The rest of the body is essentially 45 degrees off. Looks to me like the poor thing has broke his back, either from breeding or some altercation with the female that I did not witness.

So from the head back about a foot the animal looks normal and can hold itslef upright. After that there is a small bump on what would be the side of the animal - but since he is twisted has now become the top. From here on what SHOULD be the side of the animal is now the top the way he is sitting.

This is not a small bend, but looks broke. What is odd is that I would think had he broke his back he would have no muscle movement past that point. He does have muscle movement, because when you touch him to try and put him upright, he flinches, even the part past the bump. However he can not keep it upright, it goes back to sitting on its side.

So , any suggestions?? I have an xray appt. today after work, but the more I am thinking about it the more I am not sure it will be needed. If it is broke, is it fixable? If it is not broke and he has some other problem, can I fix that? I am not sure this animal will or can be saved either way. However I will not just give up on him either.

If worse does come to worse and he needs to be put down, what is the most humane way for this to be done? Take to the vet for a shot? I do not want to use the freezer method if at all possible.

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

Wow Shawn....how weird. I don't have much light to shed, but if he were mine, I would get the x-ray. Perhaps you can get it copied as a jpg and share it with us, as well as the diagnosis. Also, I hear that euthanasia is the most humane. I have read that the freezing process is painful because of the effect it has on the tissues as they crystalize ????

Please let us know what you find out. I think it would be very educational.
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is so serious".

I have an appt. to get an xray this afternoon.

I agree that the freezer does not sound like a good option and I do not want to induce any additional pain on the animal.

I sure hate to be in this situation not only for me but for the boa as well since he was such a great animal as well as extremely friendly.

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Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.SouthernBoids.com
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Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

Shawn,
...I am sorry to hear this. With that much deformation the spinal cord is likely severed or seriously injured. The movement when you touch it may be reflexes. If you keep touching it around the tail does it seem like it is aware of and annoyed by those touches and does it try to crawl away? If it does try to crawl does it seem that only the body forward of the injury is making the effort to crawl? Euthanasia will be indicated with a spinal cord injury.
Jeff

>>I have an appt. to get an xray this afternoon.
>>
>>I agree that the freezer does not sound like a good option and I do not want to induce any additional pain on the animal.
>>
>>I sure hate to be in this situation not only for me but for the boa as well since he was such a great animal as well as extremely friendly.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Thanks
>>Shawn Morelan
>>www.SouthernBoids.com
>>_____
>>
>>Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]

I would think that by that point, they would be so far into 'hibernation', kind of like a zombie state, that they wouldn't feel or even realize this was occuring.. I would think all feeling would be lost at that point.

I'd love to hear more about this too..

Take care - Joe Rollo - BciJoe
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

>>I would think that by that point, they would be so far into 'hibernation', kind of like a zombie state, that they wouldn't feel or even realize this was occuring.. I would think all feeling would be lost at that point.

That's what I've thought too. Heck, I don't know....I just read that somewhere. Anyway, I am interested to learn what the x-rays show.
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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is so serious".

I think you are almost certainly right, Joe. With a reptile, the level of consciousness would progressively decrease as the body temperature drops. By the time the tissues have begun to freeze the animal would be anesthetized, comatose, narcotized, however you want to put it, and shouldn't be able to feel pain. I think freezing is a humane method of euthanazia for cold blooded animals. It wouldn't be for warm blooded animals of course.

Please see my other posts on the matter but freezing an animal is not a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles. It once was thought to be, but has long since been disproven.

While cold can "sedate" a reptile it has very limited affect on the neurological system. A cold snake is still aware and can feel everything. This is why anesthetic agents are used when performing surgury on reptiles just as in mammals.

YOu are correct Linda, the problem is that the tissue crystalizes before the animal dies. Have you ever had frost bite? Imagine your whole body burning like that.

If you keep him in a vision, it occurs , rarely, but it occurs, they drop off the lip on top and get stuck the wrong way snapping their own spines.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I think that will give reason to anyone who has not already switched to do so! Boaphiles are great! (Jeff if you see this can i get a discount for advertiseing! )

Visions are no good for snakes small enough to actually FIT int he top lip.
If they are big boas and cannot fit, visions are the best, no comparison.
I dont like boaphiles becuase you drop them , they shatter.
I like visions cause if you drop them they bounce back at you, glass may break but easily replaceable from Vision.
I do not recomend visions for carpet pythons, small pythons thickness of an adult carpet, and similar.
They are the ones that can get up int he top lip, but a 15 lb female boa cannot.....not at my place anyways.
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

I have seen someone using duck tape to seal the space between the bottom and the lip. Probably for ease of cleaning. I haven't tried it myself but maybe that will offer a solution?

You can also place the right size PVC pipe in the lip. This will work well but I still like the easy maintance of other cages.
PD

I definitely don't want to be the one to end up removing a 4' long strip of duct tape off a pissed off snake!

Well I guess if you leave the sticky part exposed you might have a problem. But I would imagine the person putting the tape in the cage wouldn't be that stupid to leave any of it exposed.....hopefully.

Well, I don't think they would be, but snakes will be snakes, and tape will be tape. The snake is going to defecate on it, the tape is going to get old, exposed to heat/humidity, and eventually the snake will figure a way into a duct taped mess-LOL! It may take a while for it to happen, but when it did, like I said....I don't want to be that guy-LOL! Take care

Paul

The person I saw using it was using shavings so that might help a bit and it did look like a 400. I have a 400 and it looks like it might work but I don't have anything that small in it just a big Suri. But you are right I wouldn't want to peel duck tape off a Boa either!

I have adult boas that still TRY to get into the groove, followed by multiple THUMPS! Then they try to wedge between the groove and the recess on the top of the cage and sit there and push, and push, and push trying to get inbetween the tight space and follow that up with a THUMP. I think that new model 400 might be better than the "old" 4' cages in this regard though, plus they're not as tall, but still taller than boaphiles(easier to get into to clean!!!) I think visions and boaphiles are both equally good cages, with different short comings. Now, to take Chris' offer one step farther....LOL, they can both send me a wall of 4' cages, and I'll do a full product comparison for them, free of charge-lol! Vision??? Boaphile??? E-mail me-lmao! Take care

Paul

I sold all of my Visions to a Bearded Dragon breeder for that very reason. I got tried of hearing that "THUNK" sound everytime they fell off the top lip. I've also had one boa get stuck between the top lip and the top of the cage. I purchased a bunch of old Neo's and am happy I made the switch. The corners on some of the old Neo's are cracked but at least I know my snakes are safe.
PD

Last season I didn't have a female to go with a male DH Ghost so I sent him out to a breeder friend on loan. A few months later after it was back home I noticed the spine and body was rigid two thirds back from the head. This area had minimal flexability. I brought him to the vets and X-rays showed the ribs had been broken and had recalcified to the point where they were fused to the spine. The damaged area was about four inches long on both sides. I don't know if he had been wrapped by the massive female he was in with or there was some mishap while away but he is breeding as I type so thankfully it had no detrimental effects. I wonder if in your case a good vet can reset the spine sort of like a chiropractor does to humans? I think an X-ray will tell all. I wish you and your animal much luck.

That really stinks. Please keep us posted on what the vet says.

Kathy

>>I have a very nice male that bred last year and all went according to plan.
>>
>>This year that same male started off strong but then stopped eating and starting sitting funny, meaning the first 1/3 of the body looks normal, top on top etc. The rest of the body is essentially 45 degrees off. Looks to me like the poor thing has broke his back, either from breeding or some altercation with the female that I did not witness.
>>
>>So from the head back about a foot the animal looks normal and can hold itslef upright. After that there is a small bump on what would be the side of the animal - but since he is twisted has now become the top. From here on what SHOULD be the side of the animal is now the top the way he is sitting.
>>
>>This is not a small bend, but looks broke. What is odd is that I would think had he broke his back he would have no muscle movement past that point. He does have muscle movement, because when you touch him to try and put him upright, he flinches, even the part past the bump. However he can not keep it upright, it goes back to sitting on its side.
>>
>>So , any suggestions?? I have an xray appt. today after work, but the more I am thinking about it the more I am not sure it will be needed. If it is broke, is it fixable? If it is not broke and he has some other problem, can I fix that? I am not sure this animal will or can be saved either way. However I will not just give up on him either.
>>
>>If worse does come to worse and he needs to be put down, what is the most humane way for this to be done? Take to the vet for a shot? I do not want to use the freezer method if at all possible.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Thanks
>>Shawn Morelan
>>www.SouthernBoids.com
>>_____
>>
>>Signature file edited; [phw 9/26/04]
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Boa Insanity is not a disease, only a passion.

I'm really sorry to hear about that! I wish I had a solution for you, but I do wish you the best of luck with him. Keep us posted!
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Amanda Burke
Email
Burke Reptiles Website

Shawn,
I am very sorry to hear about that. I am actually surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. Sometimes I see 30lb females lying on small males and think they are going to sufocate them or something similarly horrible. The comment on the vision cages is interesting because I use them and often males use that crawl space when first checking out a females' cage and they frequently fall.
Let us know what the xrays show and if the vet thought there was any thing to do about a broken back or spinal cord injury. Regarding the freezer I don't know if the animals would pass out before they feel pain. Hopefully the male was able to pass his genes on before this terrible accident.
Bill

I am happy to see that you are willing to do what it takes to find out if this problem is treatable. If it is obviously not after your X-ray and vet exam, then your vet will be able to euthanize it humanely and properly.

Not all breaks injure the spinal cord which explains the movement caudally. I have a hard time believing that this is a break being the lack of traumatic history and the animal being a snake, but I guess nothing is impossible. Other problems the vet will want to rule out may include tumor, other neurological disorders, and severe pain (of course from what, which is the next step). All of which may cause these odd symptoms in their own way.

Good luck with your snake, I wish you the best

ps, please see my above post supporting your decision against freezing

Hi Shawn,
I'm really sorry to here that about your male. I hope it's not as bad as it sounds.

If you have to put him down I recommend having a Vet. do it. I believe the theory that the freezing process is painful.

Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com
Naked I see the camp of those who desire nothing