Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I copied this from another forum, the forum and author i'm not telling. He's already been yelled at enough over there.

MY STUPID CAT HAD TURNED OFF ONE OF MY POWER STRIPS BY STEPPING ON IT AND IT TURNED OFF THE HEAT TO ONE OF MY CAGES... THE CAGES HOUSED MY 6.5 FOOT RED TAIL BOA... WELL BECAUSE THE POWER SOURCE WAS OFF THE CAGE DROPPED TO ABOUT 65 DEGREES... AND THATS BAD ENOUGH BECAUSE HE WAS LIKE THAT FOR ABOUT 24 HOURS... BUT I HAD THROWN IN A RAT FOR HIM TO EAT BEFORE I LEFT... THE RAT LEFT ABOUT 23 BITEMARKS ON MY SNAKE AND ONE IS ABOUT THE SIZE OF A QUARTER AND A GOOD 1/2 INCH DEEP...
I RUSHED HIM TO THE VET AND THE VET STICHED ABOUT 6 OF THE BITES BUT WE HAD TO LEAVE THE LARGE ONE OPEN BECAUSE WE ARE WORRIED IT WILL FILL WITH FLUID... SO HE GAVE ME THE EQUIVALENT TO NEOSPORIN... AND I PUT IT ON THE WOUND COVERING IT AND HAVE TO WASH IT OUT IN THE SINK FOR ABOUT 15 MINUTES A DAY... AND EVERY OTHER DAY I GIVE HIM A SHOT OF ANTIBIOTICS...
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

It has everything to do with owner neglect. Never leave a rat unattended with a snake. Feeding live DOES NOT CAUSE that. Letting a live rat co-habitate with a snake does.

You need to get your facts straight. You made the same mistake a little while ago by posting an old picture (and making it sound like it was new) of a poor snake that was left unattended with a rat for days and said that it was from feeding live, pure BS.

Kerby...

I remember that old pic of the ball python that was totally messed up from a mouse. How long did they say the mouse was in? Half an hour? TOTAL BS...

Just don't leave a rat and a snake unattended.

Ryan

I agree that most live feeding disasters are caused by keeper neglect. Leaving a snake with a live rat for long periods of time? Yikes...
But there's still that small percentage (admittedly rare) where the keeper is in attendance and it's over before they can intervene. Not just with rats either.
I completely understand that there are snakes that refuse to take anything other than live. But aside from such rare exceptions, f/t or p/k is generally the way to go.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.0 Arizona Mountain Kingsnake (coming soon)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

I don't want to contridict what you are saying because I am new to this site. So I don't know what you are talking about in reguards to the other picture. However, I have been told and have read in many articles that it is far safer to feed prekilled or frozen thawed to avoid injury to snake.

Pre-killed prey is definitely the best route, as I know of more then one captive snake which has incurred a nasty bite, even lose an eye, while attempting to subdue a rat or mouse, even in the presence of the bewildered owner.
Of course, there are some specimens which will not take pre-killed prey of the bat, but with a little time and patience, most any species will take pre-killed..

Best regards,

Jeff

as accidents can happen, even when the owner is standing right there and watching the snake kill and eat the mouse/rat. We all know the risks one is taking when feeding live prey.

I personally do not feed live prey because I learned my lesson the hard way. I used to think the same way alot of people do who feed live prey. "It happens in the wild" mentality is what I used to think. The first snake I ever had was a large black rat snake and I used to feed it live prey. I didnt know any better, and one day when I threw the mouse in with the snake, the snake grabbed the mouse by the hind quarters. As he was looping his coils around it, the mouse bit him several times before the snake could put the big squeeze on. One was a very deep puncture wound that bled pretty badly. After about a month of fighting infection, the wound finally healed up, and he had a bad scar. After that I fed him pre-killed, which he took readily and I didnt have to worry about the snake getting bitten again. The snake was just lucky the bite didnt injure any internal organs, or worse yet to the head!!

Sure people can argue all they want that snakes have to kill in the wild. This is true, but once you put them in your collection and they are no longer in the wild, then YOU are responsible for their health and general well being. How many adult snakes have you guys caught out in the wild that were in "pristine" condition?? A very low percentage Im sure. There is a reason for this. The animals that snakes predate on have a pretty decent arsenal for protection. I wouldnt try to pick up a small squirrel, a mouse, or a rat out in the field!!! They can deliver a NASTY bite!! I would rather take a hit from a large bull snake!!

Sure there are those picky snakes in peoples collections that will not feed on F/T prey, and therefore have to be fed live. I have no problems with this, but I feel that the snake should be switched over to F/T as quick as possible.

The pros FAR outweigh the cons on F/T vs live prey, and I still dont understand why people continue to feed live when they dont have to.

Now as far as the snake in the above post, that was just plain neglect on the owners part. Maybe he/she has a snake that will not eat F/T. Again, no big deal, but the owner should have stayed there until the prey was eaten or felt that the snake was not interested in eating and the the food item removed from the cage. Not left in there for 24 hours. Hopefully the snake will heal up without any complications and the owner has learned a valuable lesson!

Before we turn the flame thrower on someone, we need to make sure it wasnt done out of just ignorance. Maybe this person had gotten crappy husbandry info from the pet store where the snake was bought!! How many times have we all been in a pet store and heard an employee telling a clueless customer some very very bad info!!!! Probably too many to count.

Not flaming anyone, just giving my $.02 worth is all.

Herping season is almost upon us!!!!

Brian
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

go back and find the post. i said that it was in there for a couple hours... i was misinformed. i later posted correcting that statement. and i never said it was new, i said i found it another forum. so how about YOU get YOUR facts straight before you go taking personal attacks on people.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

**go back and find the post. i said that it was in there for a couple hours...**

No you didn't, you said it was in there for 30 minutes:

Here is what you wrote,

""I think the person who posted that pic said it was a matter of 30 minutes or so, however i'm not really sure.""

**i was misinformed. i later posted correcting that statement.**

Yes, you were misinformed, but it was you who made the post. And no, you never made a post correcting that statement.

Got any other FACTS to say about this, or do you want to beat this into the ground? LOL

Owner neglect, not because of feeding live.

We are actually on the same team and are in conflict of agreement, so let it go....

Cheers,

Kerby...

"Mice, it's what for dinner"

There exists the occasional individual snake that will not yet take a prekilled prey item, outside of that situation it is foolish and negligent to feed live prey.

Captive snakes lose their “edge” when hunting. This gives a huge advantage to a sharp toothed rodent with an instinct for self-preservation. In the wild a snake generally only hunts successfully under optimum conditions. In captivity it is forced to hunt regardless of its health, mood, appetite etc. Captive snakes can also become apathetic in dealing with dangerous prey. They are also used to intrusions into their space and thus take potential threats less seriously. In short, the aggressive survivalist instincts of a captive animal are reduced.

Another problem arises if the snake does not want to immediately kill its prey. The rodent, having no where else to go, will have to attack the snake. The snake is at a marked disadvantage here. The whole hunting/killing scenario is also prolonged in captivity creating ethical issues over the humane treatment of animals.

The scenario beginning this thread was no doubt multiplied by the snake being incapacitated by the low temperature and the rat having been left with the snake unattended. Even in the best of situations it only takes a moment for a rodent to inflict a catastrophic injury, even a fatal one. I have seen mice kill Kingsnakes, I know of rats killing rattlesnakes, I have seen rodents rendered immobile by constriction still manage inflict nasty bites to a snake.

One might make a case for feeding live for research purposes, but this would not involve captive bred, pets, or long term captive snakes. Some people like to feed live rodents to snakes because they think it’s cool to watch. There is no need to address further how disturbing that personality trait is.

Bottom line is there are no ethical, knowledgeable, or conscientious snake keepers who do not prefer dead to live rodents for the reasons mentioned. If you value your pet, take care of it.

Randy
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Firehouse Herps

I can't say much that hasn't been said well by Randy in the post above mine, however, Kerby's remarks that bite wounds on the snake in question are to do with keeper error vs. feeding live as a practice is complete and total bull. As has been explained, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR FEEDING LIVE PREY. It is extremely rare that any snake will refuse F/T. To feed live prey as a matter of course is negligence in itself and is inviting a situation such as the one Chris is posting about.

To say the situation is due totally to keeper error and not as a result of feeding live it poor reasoning. Plain and simple - if he'd fed F/T and left it in the cage, it's not like a dead mouse/rat is going to attack a snake. If you're feeding live and you haven't exhausted every possible means of switching a snake over to F/T then you are asking for something bad to happen. It's not a matter of IF but a matter of WHEN.

I know of one story of a guy who'd raised a Boa constrictor constrictor from a baby to a fine 10 foot adult and fed it live the whole time. Everything was fine until the one feed day while he was watching, a live rat [even though being constricted], was able to bite the snake in the head puncturing it's brain case and killing it. So much for ten years of care.

The whole notion that supervised feeding of live prey is somehow better is complete bull too. You think you can actually intervene to separate a live rodent and a snake? I'm not going to say any more on this except to reiterate that feeding live without extreme reasons for doing so is one of the most irresponsible things a snake keeper can do.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

I saw a longer version of this argument play out not long ago on the kingsnake board, so I went back and dug up two things that came up in that argument, and should interest anyone following this thread.

First is this - http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-document&issn=0018-0831&volume=058&issue=04&page=0429
It's a link to an article called "Scavenging By Snakes: An Examination of the Literature." The basic claim is something very weak, like based on the number of incidents of scanvenging that have been reported, and the fact that wild caught snakes readily accept dead prey, we should consider the possibility that snakes scavenge more often than people think they do.

Also, there's this, which comes direct from the kingsnake forum a little while back. I am quoting from a post there, and that post was quoting from the USDA website. "The freezing process itself does not destroy nutrients. In meat and poultry products, there is little change in nutrient value during freezer storage."
The link this quote was taken from is here: www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/pubs/freezing.htm

The point I'm making, and that was made on the king board, is that if the nutrients in frozen prey don't degrade, and snakes scavenge in the wild, then I can't see any reason to feed live. Generally I'm of the opinion that there is more than one way to do almost anything, but in this case I can't see any upside, any reason that people would WANT to feed live.