Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been flirting with the idea of putting my Russian Tort & IJC python together for a few years now. And am finally at a stage that I think in regards to space it would be nice for both of them.

I don't mean to be naive, but are there issues with such a move?

Appreciate any guidance anyone can provide (IJC is a juvie).

Thanks

python sounds scarry...hope he didn't treat yer tort as a lil' hamburger...

There are potential problems with mixing the two species.

1) Environment: Russians like it dry. Irian Jaya is a tropical setting with potentially high humidity. I don't know the particular needs of the python, but if it needs high humidity, at least compared to the russian, then the tortoise may suffer upper respiratory problems. Or if it is too dry, then problems will arise for the python.

2) Predator and non-predator: The python is a predator and when compared to this small tortoise, a very large predator. While the python may not feed on tortoises, I imagine it would be very stressful for the tortoise to be in the same enclosure with a large predatory animal. The russian needs to be out in the open to bask and feed. If it feels intimidated by the python, it may hide and suffer.

3) Incompatible microbes: I assume the tortoise is wild caught (most russian tortoises are). It may still harbor some parasites or other microscopic organisms that while not harmful to itself, may prove to be harmful or deadly to the python. The python, while possibly captive-bred, may also carry its own set of microbes that are beneficial to itself but potentially harmful to the tortoise.

I say don't do it mostly based on 1 and 2 above. Keep them each in an enclosure optimized for the animal's individual needs, and don't stress the tortoise by keeping it with such a large predator. #3 may also be a problem, although I don't know the actual risk.

I agree with BRADtort, it would be a mistake. I do keep large snakes and tortoises, never together. If your Python is an excitable feeder, an accidental feeding response could result. I think that an active little horsefieldi crawling over your python, with its sharp nails and persistent climbing would be very irritating to your Python, with nothing to gain and perhaps disease exposures to lose. Why take the chance? Maybe in a giant enclosure you could have an arboreal species (snake) mixed with a terrestrial form (tortoise) but for most it would not be practical. If you do it, let us know, you may be plowing new ground and rarely a great leap forward occurs.

I have an example that is marginally related.

I went to the local zoo (St. Louis, MO) to visit the herp house (what else?)

Anyway, it was feeding day. They have several mixed species enclosures: a snake or two, a lizard, and maybe a turtle/tortoise.

One setup appeared to be a forest floor environment. Inside it a three-toed box turtle was consuming a dead fuzzy mouse. Until a fair-sized black rat snake showed up. It wrestled the mouse away from the turtle, consumed it, and then pursued the turtle relentlessly. It constantly poked at the turtle's head, probably seeking the scent of the mouse. The turtle frantically crawled in circles, trying to evade the snake.

I later sent an e-mail to the zoo about it. Haven't been back so I don't know if anything was changed.

I would think that this might be a benefit to the turtle. This interaction must encourage a flight response. It also teaches the turtle to associate a possible attack with that type of food. The turtle probably burned off some calories in the process of flight. There is also the benefit of learned behavior that would probably increase its chances of survival. The only negative point I can see is the perceived 'cruelty' of the situation.

I'm very sure there was a great deal of thought that went into the design of that exhibit. I'm also sure those species to cohabitate in the wild.

I'm not saying that this guy should put a Russian tortoise with carpet python. That is not even close to the same thing you are pointing out.

Now, a sand boa with the Russian or an elongated with the carpet python would work if the kind of planning and execution were implemented similar to what you saw at the St. Louis Zoo.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I'll disagree.

I don't recall the exact measurements of the enclosure, but maybe it was 40-50 sq ft.

The turtle turned in circles, constantly pursued by the snake. This went on for at least 5 minutes while I watched. I left because I was tired of watching the turtle being harassed.

The turtle had nowhere to go and it had to deal with a more agile competitor. If they were out in the wild, this would probably be a rare encounter. In this setting, it could be an almost weekly battle.

Why crank up the stress on the animals?

But it's not the end of the world. If the enclosure had an area of a few hundred square feet, I wouldn't be concerned at all.

I'm not trying to change your mind or anything but I would like to offer a different perspective.

I'm acquainted with some of the keepers at the St Louis Zoo and I know they are conscientious herpers. I've also visited there a few years ago and know the animals are very well taken care of.

Stress is a part of life and I'll bet it is actually necessary.

Also, in the wild the turtle is more likely to encounter much more stress than the occasional ratsnake (fox, raccoon...)

The one other question I have, what was the duration and the frequency of these attacks?

Needless to say... just a different point of view.

>>I'll disagree.
>>
>>I don't recall the exact measurements of the enclosure, but maybe it was 40-50 sq ft.
>>
>>The turtle turned in circles, constantly pursued by the snake. This went on for at least 5 minutes while I watched. I left because I was tired of watching the turtle being harassed.
>>
>>The turtle had nowhere to go and it had to deal with a more agile competitor. If they were out in the wild, this would probably be a rare encounter. In this setting, it could be an almost weekly battle.
>>
>>Why crank up the stress on the animals?
>>
>>But it's not the end of the world. If the enclosure had an area of a few hundred square feet, I wouldn't be concerned at all.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

In captivity, stress is basically the number 1 killer of reptiles.

You would be better off letting Michael Jackson attend some cub scout meetings. Don't do it!!! Your asking for death from disease and stress for both of them.

In additon to the potential irritant an active, crawling tortoise might be to a more sedate python, the potential for parasite transfers is considerable. Healthy tortoises are infamous for sampling some pretty weird items. Coprophagy (poop eatin') is common, and the white urates that often accompany a python defecation might well be sampled. I see no advantages to this unnatural mixing of dissimilar species from drastically different biomes, and do not think it is a good idea.

While all the above posts suggest that this is a poor idea ( I like the micheal jackson analogy ) you have a wonderfull idea of creating a communal enclosure. What has been brought up is that you have chosen poor candidates to combine. While success can be achieved from mixing such different species they must both have habitat as a common denominator. Space is the second key, with room for different niches, the aboreal snake and terrestrial turtle was suggested.

When taking on the challenge that you propose you are essentially creating a peice of native habitat withen your home and it should be copied in the utmost detail to enjoy success.

Good luck in your endeavors

if you like to gamble with the lives of your critters, then go for it. especially if you frequent the blackjack tables in vegas -- and return home richer.

aside from the potential pathogen exchanges, i'm imaging the tortoise burrowing into the coils of the snake. yes, in this case most of us would predict the python would move out of the way. however, there have been many people who also incorrectly predicted that their snake would move out of the way if a rat started to chew into their body. some of these people were wrong. do the odds look favorable?

i wouldn't do it.

matt

I appreciate everyone's comments, as I haven't been in a herp mindset in years (sold off most of my pets, got this IJC from a family member)

Well first off I'll be leaving the tort & IJC in their own enclosures. I'd rather have healthy and happy pets than risk everything for a tight looking setup.

The one shame is the custom cage (that the tort lives in) is almost perfect for both to live in. Now close your eye's and imagine It's a revamped entertainment center with the bottom 4ftx2ftx1ft plexi glassed w/ heat lights with an open 1ftx1ft into the upper area that is 1ftx2ftx3ft with limbs, cover & heat lights. So right now just the bottom half is being used by the tort. (and no I won't section off the top for just the snake, as it's a nice size space, but feel that he would need access to the bottom for a good environment).

You win some and lose some. Thanks again everyone.