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Formerly Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta x
obsoleta quadrivittata

Now pantherophis ????

Thank you (Darn new books, changing the scientific names...)

L

Pantherophis obsoletus obsoletus X obsoletus quadrivittata.

But according to CNAH, there is discussion of calling all rat snakes east of the Apalachicola river the Eastern rat snake or Pantherophis alleghaniensis. This will lump the everglades, yellow, grey, and all intergrades into one species!!! If you think that is crazy, they are talking about lumping all gray and black rats, to include intergrades that occur west of the Apalachicola to the Mississippi river, the Midland rat snake, or Pantherophis spiloides!!! Then all of the rat snakes west of the mississippi, to include the black rat and texas rat, the Western rat snake, or Pantherophis obsoletus obsoletus!!!! Absolute madness!!!!

If you dont believe it, read it for yourselves!!! Here is the link!!

Eastern rat snake - http://www.cnah.org/detail.asp?id=130

Midland rat snake - http://www.cnah.org/detail.asp?id=133

And Western rat snake - http://www.cnah.org/detail.asp?id=128

Read it and weep!!
Brian

>>Formerly Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta x
>>obsoleta quadrivittata
>>
>>Now pantherophis ????
>>
>>Thank you (Darn new books, changing the scientific names...)
>>
>>L
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Thanks-I saw that!

and it confused me-the Life List Book I just got lists the new names and then "phases" named after people or places (you know what I mean)-so I'm tryin to figure out if it's listed or not. Of if it has to go with my other page of not listed things. (like our state lists Midland and Eastern Painted turtles seperately and the book doesn't-so I figured I'd make a page of "other stuff" not listed)

By what you said-I guess it's not listed seperately--who is messing around with these old scientific names anyway?? It's rather annoying and doesn't make sense much of the time (even though it may be valid)..thinking of the Canebrake and Timber thing..sigh..I certainly can tell the difference at a glance...

(-Ref: book by Chad Arment 2005)

I appreciate your time ^_^

-L

>>Formerly Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta x
>>obsoleta quadrivittata
>>
>>Now pantherophis ????
>>
>>Thank you (Darn new books, changing the scientific names...)
>>
>>L
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

I wanted to say thanks for the reminder of the CNAH-when my old PC went-so did that info-now I can keep up again. (or try)

I've got alot of reading ahead of me now!

Thanks again

-L

>>Formerly Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta x
>>obsoleta quadrivittata
>>
>>Now pantherophis ????
>>
>>Thank you (Darn new books, changing the scientific names...)
>>
>>L

The North American "Elaphe" was changed to "Pantherophis" in 2002, by Utiger et. al. The reason behind this change was the fact that North American ratsnakes are not closely related to the Old World ratsnakes, which retain the "Elaphe" name. They are actually closer to other genera, such as Lampropeltis and Pituophis.

Peace....TC

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

I'm old enough to remember the Northern (Common) watersnake being changed from Natrix-sigh....anyway...

Part of the confusion is the "Common" names-seems as though those aren't overly consistant either. (from book to nook to author to auther to website to website)

And I always wondered why the Greenish Rat Snake isn't a subspecies of it's own by now-since they seem to breed true. (meaning if you breed 2 greenish ratsnakes -you get greenish ratsnakes--at least mine do.)Oh well....

Sometimes I think it's easier (yeah right) to be able to look at a photo and say-"I saw this one"-LOL! Silly as that sounds, seeing as there are variations from snake to snake-but you can usually tell what it is.

But thank you all for the input-and I'll just stop this subject now-didn't mean to start anything bad.

PS-good thing I didn't get into Glossy Snakes.....

And I always wondered why the Greenish Rat Snake isn't a subspecies of it's own by now-since they seem to breed true. (meaning if you breed 2 greenish ratsnakes -you get greenish ratsnakes--at least mine do.)Oh well....

I would like to know more about your Greenish Rat Sankes. Could you post pictures and tell us what area you found them in?

Thanks,

Rick

I always wondered what the criteria were for claiming that something was a subspecies rather than a separate species. For example, what exactly is it that makes o. quadrivatta (is it quadrivattUS now? I'm assuming it is, but correct me if I'm wrong) a subspecies of o. obsoletus? Why couldn't it be quadrivattus quadrivattus? Is it that o. obsoletus has the larger range, or are there DNA tests or something?

The way I understand it, and I could be wrong, ist that now with the new DNA evidence there are some serious changes in the pipes! According to the info I have read on Burbrinks findings, the everglades and yellow rat are just color morphs of the same snake. Seems the gray rats found east of the apalachicola river have the same DNA as well. This may be due to intergradation with the yellow in the range overlaps. As this is the case with the gray and black in the grays northern range of TN and KY.

I guess this is why biologists/herpetologists are wanting to do away with ssp all together and go with 3 distinct species!!!

According to DNA tests these 3 "new" species all have distinct DNA, and warrant arriving at 3 distinct species vs. having a species and ssp.

Although I dont agree with it, it may be something getting ready to change. Dont really know what kind of impact all of this will have on different state laws, but we will see.

Quadrivittata, if the new changes go into effect will now fall under Pantherophis alleghaniensis, along with rossalleni and the gray X yellow intergrades east of the apalachicola river.

The current black rats on the eastern board will also fall into that species category!! This also means the greenish as well!!! Dont ask me how they arrived at this conclusion, as I am still scratching my head on that one!!

The small range of the new species Midland ratsnake or Pantherophis spiloides, will encompass east from the Mississippi river to the western banks of the Apalachicola river. This will include the gray, black and gray X black intergrade in that range.

West of the Mississippi, the black and texas rats will now become the Western rat snake or Pantherophis obsoletus.

Brian

>>I always wondered what the criteria were for claiming that something was a subspecies rather than a separate species. For example, what exactly is it that makes o. quadrivatta (is it quadrivattUS now? I'm assuming it is, but correct me if I'm wrong) a subspecies of o. obsoletus? Why couldn't it be quadrivattus quadrivattus? Is it that o. obsoletus has the larger range, or are there DNA tests or something?
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

>>I always wondered what the criteria were for claiming that something was a subspecies rather than a separate species. For example, what exactly is it that makes o. quadrivatta (is it quadrivattUS now? I'm assuming it is, but correct me if I'm wrong) a subspecies of o. obsoletus? Why couldn't it be quadrivattus quadrivattus? Is it that o. obsoletus has the larger range, or are there DNA tests or something?

Taxonomy was always using morphological characteristics in the past. Now people are trying to rearrange things according to dna. Elaphe obsoleta, as well as other species, such as Elaphe guttata, had subspecies based on some identifiable characteristics which were consistently different from the main subspecies. These subspecies normally intergrade along their boundaries.

TC

Think about what it would mean, if noone recognized any subspecies.

Yeah can you imagine someone talking about an everglades with the new taxonomy??

"I have an orange phase Pantherophis alleghaniensis!"

What a crock of BS!!

I think on the same lines as you, and I dont know any other herpers that think differently!!!!
Brian

-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

If you use Latin word ending rules, Elaphe obsoleta quadrivittata would become Pantherophis obsoletus quadrivittatus. Tha word quadrivittatus is an adjective, so its endings change with the gender of the noun it modifies. Please note that Elaphe gutttata emoryi changes to Pantherophis gutttatus emoryi because emoryi is not an adjective. It is a possessive noun. Using this information, Elaphe bairdi would become Pantherophis bairdi, once again because bairdi is a possessive noun.

I do find it somewhat disconcerting to see the work of so many fine scientists trashed by people who do not understand their arguments. The jury is still out on the proposals made by both Dr. Burbink and his colleagues, and Dr. Utiger and his. Both groups published serious scientific papers with real data to back up their arguments in peer review publications. They had the guts to present their data, warts and all. As the body of knowledge continues to grow, one or both systems may be rejected or one or both may become partially accepted. This process could take another ten or more years. The scientific community will make up its mind slowly. For now, use the system that you like in this forum. Most of the readers go by the common names anyway.

By the way, the last time I checked, Elaphe has not been officially replaced by Pantherophis in the literature.

Thanks for the info on the Latin usage. That will come in handy.

Pantherophis hasn't replaced Elaphe in the literature, yet, but isn't that because the new literature is so slow in coming out, that the verdict is still out? Think about how long we waited before the Utiger et. al. paper(2002) came out. Hobbyists had wanted a separation of New World vs. Old World ratsnakes for a long time. We have a choice whether we want to use Pantherophis or stick with the old Elaphe name. IMO, there are a lot of votes for each choice.

I agree there should be more respect for the scientists, even when you don't agree with what they are proposing. The literature is most useful when making an argument for something and you want to have scientific backup for your arguments. I don't agree with the idea of dropping all subspecies names and just going with species, but I'm not going to trash the scientists who follow this reasoning. There's always going to be arguments bt. the scientists too, about which concept to follow, and sometimes those can be the nastiest of all.

Later....TC

edition taxonomy published by the CNAH.
Thanks for the information on the ssp changes reflecting Pantherophis. Its all going to be alittle confusing until we use them for a while.

As far as trashing scientists work, I just cant see how it can be justified to heap 3 or 4 obviously different snake ssp into one species list! I am sorry I just dont agree with it, and am eagerly awaiting the outcome.
Brian

>>If you use Latin word ending rules, Elaphe obsoleta quadrivittata would become Pantherophis obsoletus quadrivittatus. Tha word quadrivittatus is an adjective, so its endings change with the gender of the noun it modifies. Please note that Elaphe gutttata emoryi changes to Pantherophis gutttatus emoryi because emoryi is not an adjective. It is a possessive noun. Using this information, Elaphe bairdi would become Pantherophis bairdi, once again because bairdi is a possessive noun.
>>
>>I do find it somewhat disconcerting to see the work of so many fine scientists trashed by people who do not understand their arguments. The jury is still out on the proposals made by both Dr. Burbink and his colleagues, and Dr. Utiger and his. Both groups published serious scientific papers with real data to back up their arguments in peer review publications. They had the guts to present their data, warts and all. As the body of knowledge continues to grow, one or both systems may be rejected or one or both may become partially accepted. This process could take another ten or more years. The scientific community will make up its mind slowly. For now, use the system that you like in this forum. Most of the readers go by the common names anyway.
>>
>>By the way, the last time I checked, Elaphe has not been officially replaced by Pantherophis in the literature.
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Brian,

Thanks for the info. The CNAH is an important step in universal acceptance, but I will point out that there are other international bodies that also have to accept it.

I know that for all of us, this topic is difficult. There seem to be very distinct groups trying to have their differing systems used to define species. Until all of this gets worked out in science, we will have arguments about the names that are used. Please note, that when you get into subspecies, the subject gets even murkier. There are many out there that think the concept of subspecies should be done away with entirely.

Rick