Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, opinion time people.

I want to work my way into "designer morphs"
but lack of funds prevents me from dropping $15000 on a mojave etc.

I was debating one of two "starters"

1.1 100% albino hets
OR
0.1 Pastel

I have a male that I believe is large enough to breed.
If I am not mistaken, if I bred him to a pastel, the babies would all come out pastel correct?

I can then keep a male and a few females, raise them up and make super pastels.

In the long run I think a batch of pastels would sell for more then the "possibility" of albinos.
Plus, I can always get some albinos later on, and not even play with hets.

Opinions? Does this sound like a good starting plan?
It's going to take me some time to get the money to get a pastel, so I figure I'll keep my eyes out and have my checkbook ready for the 05 hatchlings.

If you have a normal and breed him to a Pastel all will be Pastels. But I see a flaw, in my opinion. I don't beleive in line breeding. And if you have 4 Pastels and their mother, then the only way to get Super Pastels is with line breeding. I would probally keep 2 females from the cluth and sell the rest, including the mother. And I would buy two male Pastels to get new blood in your breeding stock. I understand that line breeding is the only way to go sometimes, like when you're trying to prove something out and you only have one. But when it comes to Pastels, there is no reason to line breed. Personaly, I want to get into Granites. Every morph I've seen so far is beautiful. The Granite Albino, Marbled Pastel (Pastel x Granite), and the Ebony Ball (Yellow Belly x Granite). Plus with the Ebony you have the chance to make an Ivory (Ebony x Ebony). These are just my opinions. Good luck with whatever you decide to do!!!
James

unless you already have a male pastel. you will only get half of the offspring to be pastels, and the other half would be normals when you breed a normal to a pastel. when you breed pastel to pastel you'll get 1/2 pastels, 1/4 normal and 1/4 super pastel. pastels are a quick way to get into visual morphs as many here will agree. so good luck with the snake/s you decide to go with. personally i'd go with the pastels.
-----
Red Raven Reptiles
red-

Since Pastel is a codominant trait Pastels are hets and Super Pastels are homozygous. If you breed a het (Pastel) to a normal you will get all hets (Pastels). And when you breed two hets (Pastels) together you will get all homozygous animals (Super Pastels). I'm getting this straight from Markus Jayne's web site. Now when breeding simple recessive animals a het and a normal will make 100% hets. But as we know, Pastel is codominant. If I'm wrong I'm sorry.
James

i just e-mailed you a link....

-----
Red Raven Reptiles
red-

Sorry. It's about 4 in the morning and I need to get in bed. You're right. If he had a Super Pastel and he bred it back to a normal they all would be Pastels. But since he wants a Pastel, which is a het, he would get half Pastel and half normal. And no you didnt come out as rude. Im sorry if I came out as being stupid. I know a thing or two about ball pythons but when its this late my mind goes to mush.
Sorry again,
James

Pastel Female and normal male will produce about half pastels and half females (converse will produce the same)

If I were you I'd invest in a male pastel and a couple of normal females. Raise up some pastels and sell some for money to invest. Then buy a female ghost, pied, spider or whatever your funds permit to breed to your pastel boy.

Or you could buy your female pastel, and save money while she is growing for two years and invest that money into a male pied, ghost, etc.

1) pastels are not " het " in the term you are using it in. they are dom/co-dom. meaning if you breed a pastel you will either get pastels or not pastels. you cannot breed a reg and a morph, get 1/2 pastel, 1/2 normal, try and breed the 1/2 regs to each other and expect a pastel - wont work

2) it all depends on what you are wanting out of the project and how much time you want to spend. you could buy a male pastel and as many females - grow them up and breed your male to 3-6 females or you could purchase female pastel - wait 2 years to grow and breed to reg male and get 1/2 pastels - going this route will cut about 2 years off you producing a super pastel.

do what you think will be most fun and in the end you will have some great pastels - rememeber that all these 1/2 pastels, 1/2 reg, 1/4 supers, etc are all ' probabilites ' and nature does not always use the laws of math.

A Pastel is a het. When bred back a Pastel it produces a Super Pastel, which means it's a het. There are no normal looking hets for dominant or codominant traits, but there are hets for both. Read my post above entitled Het Spider and it explains everything.
James

you are going to confuse people when you say a pastel can be het and a spider can be het. most people refer to hets when talking about recessive animals. - albinos,pieds,etc. i was just trying to keep it simple. you will never find anyone on kingsnake ( or anywhere else unless they are trying to screw someone ) say they are selling a 100% het pastel or spider that looks like a normal ball . because if you would buy such and animal and breed it to a reg ball you will get 100% normal balls. and if you take those babies and breed back to their parents you will have - yes 100% normal looking balls and so forth. if you breed a 100% het albino to a 100% het albino ( both look like normal balls ) you have a good chance of producing a visable albino.

to refer to a co-dom as a het for super. At this point its just stupid maybe somewhere down the line there might be a reason for it, but for now, I don't see any reason. Maybe you can call it, het for bumblebee? LOL

IMHO - Call it what it is a pastel, a spider ....
-----
Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Since when is it stupid to state the facts? The fact is there are Pastel and Spider hets. I understand where ya’ll are coming from. Most people do use the term hets when referring to simple recessive traits, but don’t you think if we state the facts about co dominant and dominant hets less uninformed people would be getting scammed? In my previous post I clearly stated the difference between all the hets. I made it as comprehensive as possible. If you read my posts you will clearly see the differences of all the hets. Instead of ignoring the subject because it may be confusing or stupid to some people, I say we educate the “newbies” about it. The more they know, the less the people scamming to make a quick buck will make. I’m sorry if you disagree with me, but this is a subject that does need to be explained. The fact is a Yellow Belly is a het for Ivory, a Pastel is a het for Super Pastel, a Woma is het for Pearl, and ect. And Spider’s have hets, Spotnose’s have hets, Pinstripe’s have hets, and ect. And none of the co dominant or dominant hets look normal. The more people read about the facts the less confusing it gets. So sorry if you think it’s stupid or confusing, and sorry if you feel you wasted your time by reading this. If you want to learn more about this subject in a visual way, visit Markus Jayne’s web site.
My to cents,
James

This is what I'm saying.... Is it really necessary, yeah we all know that pastels create super pastels, So what. To say they are het for it sounds like some advertising champaign. It is a pastel period, no better or worse than any other pastel out there. By stating it's het for super then you are misleading those "newbies" into thinking your pastel is better then the rest. While it may theoretically be somewhat true, it's unnecessary and misleading, it's a pastel.

Now in cases where a different morph is produced (your examples of YBs to ivories and Womas to pearls) it would be appropriate to call them hets.

IMO
-----
Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

There are no difference between Pastels, Yellow Bellies, Womas, and ect. They are all co dominant and all produce a "super" homozygous form. What I'm saying is we need to educate that the hets in co dominant and dominant are real and they do not look normal. Read the post above. One guy wants to argue that there are no Spider hets. This is a subject that a lot of people ignore and thats why its so easy to scam people with using normals and calling them Pastel hets. I'm not claiming any Pastel is better than the next, the fact is they are all hets. As long as we ignore the issue and call it "stupid" or "confusing" there will be people who buy these normals thinking they are hets. That's just the way I see it.
James

.
-----
"Wild balls suck...period...buy American." --jyohe

n/p

By all means feel free to continue the discussion about the het Spiders, but In case I'll be buying a Spider I'll be buying an offspring from "Spider" X "Spider". Personally I'm pretty sure all offspring of the "Spider" X "Spider" offspring bred to a "normal" will look like Spiders, Meaning there will be no "Normal" looking ones in the clutch, and about 50% more "Spiders" than anybody else is hatching from a clutch of "Spider" X "Normal" breeding.

Rob Reiding.

Actually I think using the correct genotype (het pastel, het spider etc.) descriptions will benefit the newbies the most. Some of the people who where around to learn genetics when the only snake morphs where recessive will never get the idea that a het has to look normal out of their heads. At least the newbies have a chance of understanding that heterozygous JUST means having an unmatched pair of genes and doesn't necessarily mean normal looking or half way to a "super".

What if spider does prove dominant with a homozygous spider that looks just like the heterozygous one (or if not spider maybe pinstripe)? The homozygous spider will not really have a "super" appearance compared to a regular (heterozygous) spider if it looks the same so I don't think it should be called a super. I think at that point the genotype terms of heterozygous spider and homozygous spider will be the best way to distinguish between the two. Then you can use the same genotype inheritance rules that apply to all non sex linked morphs to predict the chances for each egg. As crosses involving two or more morphs of the varies types (recessive, co-dominant, or completely dominant) become more common it will be helpful to remember the one set of genotype inheritance rules and then match the phenotypes up at the end depending on mutation type.

These one mutation at a time genotype inheritance rules apply to all non sex linked morphs:

1. Heterozygous mutant X homozygous normal = 50% chance heterozygous mutant, 50% chance homozygous normal
2. Heterozygous mutant X Heterozygous mutant = 25% chance homozygous mutant, 50% chance heterozygous mutant, 25% chance homozygous normal
3. Homozygous mutant X homozygous normal = 100% chance heterozygous mutant
4. Homozygous mutant X heterozygous mutant = 50% chance homozygous mutant, 50% chance heterozygous mutant
5. Homozygous mutant X homozygous mutant = 100% chance homozygous mutant

If you can remember these 5 rules then all you have to do is remember the mutation type (recessive, co-dominant, or completely dominant) and figure out the genotypes of the breeders at the start and the phenotypes of the offspring at the end.

It is all very simple. And the same rules apply to EVERY genetic morph whether simple recessive, dominant, or co-dominant.

Chris
-----
"Wild balls suck...period...buy American." --jyohe

As I completely agree with the whole theory as explained, I feel that if you are going to use the term het the appropriate term to use would be "het for homo spider" not het for spider, because it's already a spider. That's where the confusion is going to be and thats where people are going to start selling normals as "het for spiders" hoping some newbie wont know the difference. In my book I have no problems with the terms: Het for homo spider or het for super pastel, etc. but het for spider or het for pastel is misleading. Do you see my point?
-----
Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Of course, that's ONLY if the Spiders are NOT Homozygous Spiders. =)

Chris =)
-----
"Wild balls suck...period...buy American." --jyohe

"the appropriate term to use would be "het for homo spider" not het for spider, because it's already a spider"

I see what you mean but it looks to me like you have gotten past the idea that a het must be normal looking from the early recessive morphs but are still stuck on the idea that if not normal looking it has to be half way to something else as with the co-dominant morphs. I think if we ever do prove a completely dominant morph (spider, pinstripe?) then we'll finally have a concrete example that will make people get back to the real/most basic meaning of “heterozygous” - having an unmatched pair of genes at whatever location you are talking about.

How is this for a compromise - "heterozygous for the spider mutant gene"? Maybe it shouldn't be shortened to "het spider" since all we are really saying is that it has an unmatched pair of genes at the location where the spider mutation happened and one of them is the spider mutant version of that gene. I think the confusion is coming over if you are using the term “spider” to talk about a gene or a phenotype/appearance. Ball pythons that are heterozygous for the spider gene are fully the spider phenotype, unless a homozygous spider turns out to be even more “spider”. So far the spider mutant gene is the only mutation that we know of at that gene location but I suspect we will eventually (maybe this summer with pewter) find some cases of multiple mutant alleles (different mutations of the same gene) and then it will get really fun to explain!

See you did it again: "And Spider’s have hets, Spotnose’s have hets, Pinstripe’s have hets, and ect." Maybe if you said "Spider’s ARE hets, Spotnose’s ARE hets, Pinstripe’s ARE hets, and ect. " it would be less confussing to people.

Larry
-----
Larry Walker

Actually saying Spiders are hets is misleading. The Spider trait is dominant. Saying Pastels, Yellow Bellies, Womas, Fire, and the rest of the co dominant traits are hets is more accurate. Since there is no “super” form of the Spider, unless you count the homozygous Spider, saying all Spiders are hets is wrong. I’ve done the best I can to explain this issue and now I’m going to give it a rest. I’m going to give up. If you don’t understand what a co dominant and dominant het is visit Markus Jayne’s web site and look at the “New Genetics Page”. It will show you everything you need to know, and this is for everyone.
James

I guess the first thing you need to ask yourself is what do you want to work with? Always work with what you like. If you like albinos then get the hets, if you like pastels then get the pastel. If you are one of those people (and yes there are many) that find comfort in having the visual morph on hand over the possiblity of the morph then go with the pastel.

Personally, I'd pick up the het albino female and a normal female (or more if your budget allows) raise them up, then next year pick up a homo albino male and then start breeding when they are all at breeding size.

I think that the albinos are doing a better job of holding their overall sale value over the pastels. Also with the albinos you have the advantage of having hets to sell as well as homos as opposed to with the pastels you have either pastels or normals.

But if you are thinking about future breeding and crossing, then you need to decide what you want to work with again and what crossses you'd like to do.

Hope this helps.
-----
Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer