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Is it necessary to have a dig-able substrate? Also - what age to start using?

VAMPPIRE Mar 24, 2005 02:43 PM

No, this isn't a sand vs. _____ debate. lol. If I use a substrate, it will be millet - but I was wondering if it is necessary and if the benefits outweigh any cons. I currently have the tank lined with vinyl stick-on tiles, which are easy to wipe up. Would a uromastyx be stressed/unhappy without something to dig in? Or would it be better to keep her on the tiles?

What age would it be safe to use birdseed? I do not have a weight or exact measurement of my mali (I'd never be able to catch her to weigh her), but I'd guess she's about 7-8" from nose to tail tip. I acquired her in January and she was quite a bit bigger than the other baby uros that were for sale, so I'd guess she was born last spring or maybe even before that? Not sure. The dealer mentioned 4 months, but she looked too big to be 4 months, given their slow growth rate...

Anyway, any opinions on the matter would be appreciated. Thanks!
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

Replies (8)

robyn@ProExotics Mar 24, 2005 05:16 PM

Uros are naturally a digging lizard. they will typically try and "dig" whether you offer them a good substrate or not. dig on seed, dig on shells, dig on tiles, dig in the corner, it is instinctual.

i think NOT having a diggable, burrowable substrate causes stress levels to be higher, and overall health to be lower. we have used a good diggable soil for hatchlings to adults, and all dig and burrow just great.

a number of folks here on the forum tried out diggable soils with their Uros after we had a bit of discussion about it, and saw feeding response improve, growth rates improve, overall health improve, and stress levels go down.

you should consider it, it does wonders : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

-ryan- Mar 24, 2005 05:40 PM

he knows what he's talking about...it took me a while to realize that, so just trust me when I say it's worth trying his ideas. I know you probably have some concerns about dirt as a substrate, and I think I can clear a few simple ones up for you right now, and the faq should deal with the rest.

-Where to get it- If you have any good dirts locally (either straight from the ground or at a landscaping supply company), you can get it there. I have never heard of any legitimate reason to sterilize it even though it's coming from the wild. Just dig it up from a place you know doesn't have any chemicals in it, and make sure there's nothing bad in it (garbage, broken glass, harmful insects, small animals, dead animals, etc. etc.). It should be pretty simple to do that when you experiment with the dirt. Always experiment with it before you put it in with a reptile. Dig around with it, add water, put a heat lamp over it. Do all this in a rubbermaid container or something similar for a while before putting it in a cage with animals. If you don't have a good local soil, you can make a pretty decent store bought soil using the directions on pro exotics site.

-impaction- Let's face it, we keepers have been trying to pin impaction on substrate for a while. Sure, there are some truely bad substrate choices out there, but impactions don't happen in the wild, so it's obvious that if an impaction occurs it's the fault of the keeper. Usually stress, parasite problems (which comes from stress), low basking temps (135f and higher surface basking temps are good for uros), dehydration, or using a substrate that's inadequate for the species, will lead to problems. If you keep your animals in a healthy, hot, stress free environment, and you give them all the right tools, impactions don't happen.

-don't have enough space for 1-2 feet of soil?- Well, I know robyn is really adamate about having a full burrowing substrate, but I'm more realistic in thinking that many people don't have the space or cages to fit that much soil. Or in my case, your parents say no. There are other things you can do to try to fulfill some of your lizards' dirt needs. One idea (as shown on the deer fern farms website) is to create a nest box out of a rubbermaid container and flexible plastic hose. Fill it with dirt and it gives your uro a quiet place to relax in the humidity, and it allows them a bare minimum of digging activities. Another idea which I use for mine is to take one section of a retes stack (as shown on pro exotics website), and bury it (or a couple consequtive ones) in the dirt, with only an entrance hole dug out, so the uro can dig underneath it. A similar idea is to just put some dirt in the tank, then throw down a piece of plywood, then put dirt over that and dig a little entrance hole under the plywood, so they can dig underneath it with the wood as their ceiling. I plan on using both the nesting box idea and this one in my new cages when they get completely/finish offgasing. Besides that, I also use a thin layer of soil for my uro, as well as my bearded dragon. They just like it better than the other substrates.

They're some good ideas, but definately not as good as a full digging setup, so if you have the ability, I would go with it. I only have the ability in my new cages to get, at most, around 8" of soil in, and I haven't yet found a soil that will hold a dependable burrow at only 8" deep. When I do I'll give it a shot though.

If you have any other questions about it, go to proexotics.com and check the faq. I obviously couldn't cover everthing that goes into dirt as a substrate, but I gave you a good starting point. I think once you start looking into it, you'll realize that this is the aspect to keeping these lizards that we've been missing for quite some time. They live in the desert, but they can't survive in a completely dry environment, so in the wild they go underground to maintain hydration, and that's something I feel we should provide in captivity.

vamppire Mar 24, 2005 07:48 PM

Thanks for the responses Robyn and Ryan!

All things considered, including my type and size of tank, I think I would prefer to use seed. Theres still plenty of room for a humid hide if I want, but for the general substrate I'd rather go with millet.

The tank is acrylic and only pieced together, not sealed, so I'd like to stay away from small particle substrate, and ones that need moisture. The tank also doesn't provide for a deep enough layer to make it very effective. It is only 18" high, and combined with her bulb setup (including a MVB which needs a certain distance) and her basking ornaments etc, trying to put in a high layer of dirt just wouldn't work out. (I'm also wary of her getting her greens dirty - she can be messy! But even if that wouldn't do harm, the other problems still exist.)

I still need to know what a good size or age of uro is to start using these things though. Thanks!
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

el_toro Mar 24, 2005 09:13 PM

What I've seen as recommended size/age varies. I've seen anything larger than six inches and anything older tha a year. Yours is probably ok as long as your temperatures are appropriately graded throughout the tank. I use millet with all my adult uros, but Scuttlebutt is only about 6" long and I'm not comfy with him on seed yet. Millet does pass pretty easily, though, since the round hulls don't get hung up on anything.
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx geyri (Joe and Arthur)
3.0 Uromastyx dispar maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.0 Uromastyx ornata (Scuttlebutt)
2.1 Anolis carolinensis (Bowser, Sprocket, and Leeloo)
0.1 African dwarf frog (Sheila)
1.0 Betta splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

-ryan- Mar 24, 2005 10:15 PM

Go with the next box. If it's all you can do, it's all you can do, and I accept that. Something is better than nothing in this case, and having somewhere to go with heightened humidity and something to dig into a little will probably help the uro with the stresses of captivity.

I personally wouldn't use millet as the main substrate, but that's just a preference. I use a thin (2-3" layer of soil around my uro's cage and my beardie's cage, and I like it a lot. As long as you keep water in it, it doesn't get dusty or messy, and it doesn't get kicked around except in digging activities (my uro loves to go down into her fake burrow...the buried retes stack thing I mentioned earlier....and just dig around). Plus, it's easy to spot clean, and it doesn't get all smelly. Of course, if you don't get a good soil, all of the things I mentioned can turn out just the opposite, which is why it's very important that you choose wisely. Also, the packed soil gives your animals a firm footing that they seem to like. A uro's feet are not designed for walking on millet, so they tend to sink in as they walk.

I'd say it's all a matter of opinion though really. What works for one person may not work for another. The important thing is to keep your animals healthy and happy.

vamppire Mar 24, 2005 10:25 PM

Thanks

Won't mites, etc. make an appearance? Seems to happen anywhere theres dirt...
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

-ryan- Mar 25, 2005 09:42 PM

havent' had any yet or heard of that happening. Go over to the monitor forum and just sort of sit back and watch for a while, you'll likely learn a lot about dirt and how little you really have to worry about stuff like that. Like I said, a lot of the people over there, especially those really successful in keeping their monitors, just dig up their dirt and put it in with the monitors (assuming it's got the properties they're looking for). Keeping uros on dirt is the same. The only thing you have to do is make sure that the other aspects of husbandry are taken care of.

jeune18 Mar 24, 2005 09:25 PM

helga cannot live on substrate because her back toes are falling off and it causes her feet to get infected (i rescued her, i did not do that to her) her health has been fine, but she is a spaz. hugo lives with her, his health is fine and he is not a spaz at all. helga could be a spaz because of the lack of substrate or it could be because of her former life, i am not sure. however, the moment i can put them on a subtrate i will because they drive me crazy with all the digging against the surface when they go in their hide spot. it is click, click click for what seems like forever!
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vonnie
***There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is in having lots to do and not doing it. Mary Wilson Little ***

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