Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi there! I'm new here and have a few questions. I have a variety of tree frogs, RETF, Surinam clowns, Panda bears, Peacocks, Tiger legs... All set up in seperate terrariums. Anyways, I took fecal samples to the vet from each terrarium to check for internal parasites because I have one RETF that has been having problems with rectal prolapse. The vet said that he didn't find any internal parasites, but he did find an ectoparasite red mite from all the samples. I have a couple frogs in quarantine right now and can see on the paper towels little tiny red specks which I am assuming are the mites. He gave me a medication called Ivermectin solution to give to all the frogs orally. I've been trying to find out some information about it and haven't had any luck. I can't find anything about frogs getting mites. And some of the things I've found about the medicine is that is can be really hard on snakes and reptiles, so I'm alittle worried about giving it to the frogs. He also told me that I need to clean out all the tanks, so now I'm wondering what I should use to make sure all the mites are gone. Any advice would be great. Thanks so much. Teresa

Wow, you have a really interesting collection of tree frogs,

Parasites are a difficult problem. For starters there are thousands upon thousands of different species, not all of them cause disease, and only a handfull have been thoroughly studied. In addition, detection of parasites is often sporadic and dependent on the parasite's life cycle. In addition to the multitude of parasites is another even larger foray of animals that may be "just passing through" or contaminated from the substrate.

As far as Ivermectin goes, well, it is a great anti-parasitic drug. Problems that arise in tiny creatures is the proper dosing as getting an exact weight is sometimes a problem. How is it to be administered? Are you to inject the prey with it? Are you to inject the frogs? I would first reassess your quarantine procedures and question why all your frogs have this mite. If your RETF is happy and healthy, well hydrated ect. then I would begin treatment with him, and the quarantined animals, because they have the most to gain. If this all goes well, continue with the rest of the collection. If all doesn't go well, it could be a) the drug b)some unknown factor c)shock from the vast numbers of instantly dead parasites clogging up the system.

As far as cleaning cages go, stray parasites are rather easy to get rid of. Through away all substrates, and any cage furniture that is absorbant (wood, plants, ect). A thorough wash and rinse with 10% bleach works well. Let air dry. For plants that you do not want to through out, you can pot outside of the terrarium for a guestimated time that will allow all parasites to die from lack of a host, and then reintroduce to the terrarium. Remember that many parasites are unstudied, thus knowing this time is just a guess, but 6 months should most likely do.

Good luck!

Thanks for your suggestions Joeysgreen. The dose is what is making me nervous. The vet told me to give one drop to each frog by mouth. But my panda bear frogs are no bigger than my thumbnail. And my tiger legs are probably close to 3 inches. It's just such a big difference in size, I worry about giving the same dosage to all of them.
The RETF didn't make it, he died yesterday. Have been totally bumming about that. He had a rectal prolapse that the vet corrected with a stitch, was treating him with antibiotics, but he just continued to get weaker. The vet had said that the prolapse could be caused by parasites or infection. That's the reason I took the fecals in from all the frogs. I didn't want anything to happen to the rest if I could prevent it. I'm guessing the frogs got the mites from the place I ordered them from. They all came from the same place within the last few months. Each species has their own terrarium. I have a total of 7 RETF now, but 3 of them are in a quarintine tank because they are smaller and don't seem to be putting on much weight compared to the others. So I thought maybe they could catch their food better in a seperate tank.
Thanks again for your response. Any other thoughts or suggestions would be great. Teresa

Whats the difference between mites and parasites? (or is a mite a parasite?)
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1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

I had to smile at this one

The word parasite describes any animal that enjoys a one-sided beneficial relationship with a host animal. This includes mites, lice, internal worms, ticks, children ect.

lol, thats what i was i thought (or what i learned in biology!) but i got confused when one post said they didnt find any parasites...but there were mites... thanks for the clarification
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0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

I can see why this forum doesn't have much activity now. People come here with a problem hoping for some help and to learn, instead they get ridiculed.
I was referring to the fact that the test didn't show any internal parasites, but I'm sure you knew that. I hope you have enjoyed your joke. If you think you are so smart and enjoy making fun of people who don't know everything, then why can't you seem to answer my question? I came here upset because my frog had died and didn't want to lost any others, and all I have received is smart aleck remarks. I'm sorry for thinking this was a place to come for support and help. I can guarantee you that I won't make that mistake again. Teresa

Sorry if you thought i was joking. I really didnt know if there was a difference. i was thinking mites could have been external and parasites internal (thats what i got from your post) but i had learned the diffinition of parasites in biology, so that qualified mites as parasites, but is there a difference when you are talking about herps? i honsetly didnt know. i do now.

maybe the other half of why this forum is so slow is because everyone takes everything so seriously. chill out. i was asking a question. sorry for trying to learn something.
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0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

I apologize if I jumped to the wrong conclusion. I have just been so upset about losing my frog and can't seem to get any answers on the right way to treat the rest. I've just been frustrated and I assumed you were making a joke out of my lack of knowledge. I'm sorry for taking it out on you. Teresa

Its ok. everybody does it from time to time, and its so hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic on-line.

so how are your other frogs doing?
-----
0.2.0. Leo
1.1.0. WTF
0.1.0. Irish Setter
2.1.0. Holland Lop Bunnies
1.1.0. House Cats
Too Many Fish!

Check out my site ~ www.freewebs.com/stephsgeckos

Thanks for understanding. So far the other frogs seem to be doing ok. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Teresa

Sorry about your RETF. They are really sensitive. A prolapse and all the stress it endured -- was just too much for it I am sure. Regarding these red mites. Did the vet positively ID them as mites that were parasitizing the frogs. There are are different types of mites that just live in the substrate and do not bother frogs other than just pestering them by crawling on them.

You have excellent taste in Treefrogs. I too have most all these species. Just got the tigerlegs the other day which completed the 4 varieties I want to keep. Amazon Milks, Tigerlegs (Hypochondrialis), Surinam Clowns and RETFS.

There are many others I would love to have as well but I just narrowed it down to these four species.

FYI - I would really question the vet about Ivermectin.

I know it causes a fatal reaction in turtles. They just go into a coma and die. It may not have this effect on amphibians but to be honest I have no idea.

Steve

Zoo Med makes Mite Off that's a non-toxic pesticide free spray but it only mentions that it's for reptiles. Does anybody have any knowledge if it's safe for frogs? The website doesn't list any ingredients either.

I sometimes have mites crawling around the floor of my tank but they only bother the insects that are left over. At least I hope that's all they do. I would like to try out that spray before I throw out my nicely growing Repta-Lawn. Whenever I see left over insects I take them out and then throw them outside because of the mites just in case. I've bought 2 Repta-Lawns; the first one had the mites in it and some got on me but they didn't bite (I think they mostly feed on dead grass), and the second one was mite free but that's in my anole tank.
Zoo Med Mite Off

It would be interesting to know if anyone has used the Mite off. Maybe it would be a safer alternative. Thanks for the tip. Teresa

I am not sure if it is toxic for amphibians but I would stay clear of topicals that I was uncertain about. Unlike reptiles everything gets absorbed directly through a frog's skin so it would not treat the surface for very long before it made its way into the frog system. Unless it says "safe for Amphibians" I wouldn't use it. Sounds like the "crawlies" you are describing are actually performing a service rather than hurting your frogs.

Hi Steve, Thanks for your response. Yep, we do have similar taste in frogs! lol. I keep seeing others that I would love to get, but I'm running out of space.
The vet just said it was a type of parasite that is similar to what snakes and reptiles get. He couldn't tell me the exact name or what kind. That's what makes me wonder if he's really giving me the best advice. He did a great job taking care of my little RETF with the prolapse, but I'm not sure how extensive his knowledge is. I hate to treat them with that Ivermectin when they appear to be healthy. But then again, I would hate for them to develope a problem because I didn't treat them. What to do?? For now, I'm holding off on the meds until I can figure out the best way to go.
Thanks again, Teresa

While shopping at Petsmart I looked at a bottle of Mite Off and it says not to use it on amphibiams or arachnids. I wish the website would have said that. With amphibians I guess we'll have to be extra careful.

The exact species name is often never identified when diagnosing parasitism in reptiles. Veterinarians, while very skilled in disease and pathology are not entomologists. There are millions of species of invertebrates that may be parasitic (or look like they are). This information is not necessarily needed however to describe treatment. The vet can classify the animal and then prescribe a drug that will work against that type of parasite. Ivermectin is usefull in eliminating pretty much all insect/arachnid parasites.

As far as treating your frogs goes, it should be fine to to with-hold the treatment for now. It is great to voice your concerns here, but discussing this with your vet is also a good idea. If you delay treatment to long, and then decide to go for it, then get another prescription. The one you have may expire, or worse, the concentration may be altered as the liquid proportion evaporates or absorbs into the container.

Good luck and keep us updated

Ivermectin is "safe" on reptiles and amphibians. Chelonians are an exception. It is not understood why, but ivermectin is very toxic to them. This fact is well noted in all drug formulary's used in vet. medicine.

And as a side comment, calcium insufficiency can also predispose an animal to a prolapse, double check your supplementation regimen and that your supplements are not too old.

I have had RETFs with heavy nematode levels get prolapses and require purse string sutures to retain the prolapse and recover and do just fine.

I have used ivermectin in frogs as small as 0.19 grams (mantella metamorphs with no problems).

Ed

Thank you all for your responses. I lost another frog a few days ago, so I decided to bite the bullet and try the Ivermectin before I lost them all. I gave it to just 2 of the RETF's since they are the ones I've been having problems with. These 2 appeared fairly healthy though. Well, one of them died this afternoon and the other one looks like it's not going to make it long either. It hadn't even been 24 hours since I gave it. Now I feel horrible for even giving it. I followed the vets instructions exactly. I guess I should have went with my instincts and not used it. I feel like a terrible frog mom. Thank goodness I didn't treat them all. Thank you all though for your advice. I really appreciate it. Teresa

Sorry to hear about your frogs, that is terrible, and no one thinks you are a poor owner for trying your best.

It is hard to say why ivermectin can be so harsh. It has been used many, many times without these results, yet, I have seen this type of response as well, although in a neonate chameleon, another fragile species.
The two most likely reasons are:
1)My first instinct is inaccurate dosing. The amount given is base on weight. Without an exact weight, the vet is guestimating. Other factors are the animals health prior too, dehydrated? Another issue is that ivermectin is actually made for cattle. Even in small bottles, a dilution is often necessary for such small amphibians. If this is off even the slightest bit, the dose will be wrong.
2)This has been documented with canine heartworm more, but it is highly possible with amphibians. If a large parasitic burdon is present, and then suddenly dies, there is a large dead biomass withen your frog. This can; clog the arteries, airway, digestive tract, or wherever parasites are. There is also a significant chance of analphylactic reaction to this biomass.