Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, all. I keep wondering what the big deal is about the food preferences I see here, and decided it's finally time to ask. I think what did me in was that someone (I don't recall who... I mostly just read the posts) said if they are buying from a petstore, they pass the snake up if it's feeding on live food.

I bought a normal BP from a petstore a couple of months ago, and he eats live. He is on adult mice, and does a great job. I feel that he should be allowed to follow his instincts and attack and kill his meal, such as he would in nature.

I can't figure out why the frozen thawed method is preferred, when you would (I assume) have to dangle the mouse/rat in the enclosure and wiggle it, as I have read, to trick your snake.

Can someone enlighten me? What am I missing?

Thanks so much. I love reading the posts here, and I'm getting quite the education!

Muggle
Material Witness

Hi. I have two ball pythons and they are strictly on thawed frozen rats. My belief is that feeding a ball python a live mouse or rat is very dangerous. I did quite a lot of research on this and have come across very disturbing pictures of rats biting and (in some cases) killing the python. My snakes are too important to me (and for some people too much of an investment)to put them through that type of risk.

I hope this helps.

Do you think that it is at all different that a wild BP hunts for food on its own terms and a captive one gets thrown live foreign food in a captive box in what results basically into a WWF cage match?

Just curious.

Nature doesn't mean a damn thing, I don't know why people keep bringing it up. BP's have mites and ticks and go months without water and 95% of babies die before their first birthdays. Why aren't you implementing all THOSE factors? Nature does it. It must be proper.
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is from Robyn at Pro-Exotics. Please, PLEASE read this link:

www.proexotics.com/FAQ_answers_Why_do_you_suggest_feeding_thawed.html

As a personal note ... I don't have enough BP's to breed rats or mice, so that's not an option. And its just a pain for me to go to the store once a week to buy a live one. I like the convenience of buying 20, freezing them, and having them ready when I need them.

Joel

PS: If you do one thing today, read the link and look at the pic.
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3.6 Leopard Geckos (1.4 Albino)
~~20 Leo eggs cookin'~~
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 African Fat Tail Gecko
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.0 Blair's Phase Gray Banded Kingsnake

while i was posting it. I just gave the link to the pic though.
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Josh
My Email

ok, I am getting the idea here ~sigh~

I did ask, but I didn't expect such *anger* and the touch of name calling....

I would NEVER leave my snake with a feeder in his enclosure. NEVER. Just because nature does it.... I don't want to go there. You spoke down to me, and I don't appreciate it. I asked a question, looking for an educated answer. the sarcasm can stay off the posts, and a respectful answer is much appreciated.

I once read on this very board that the only stupid question is the unasked one, and that everyone here is here to help educate the newbies. maybe that person misspoke?

anywho.... thanks for the input.

Muggle
Material Witness

Muggle,
I just read every post on here and don't see where anyone has called you a name. I think you got some very good feedback.
IMHO, There is a 'pecking order' that I use to feed. I will always feed pre-killed if available (which it rarely is). I will then use F/T. Only on a last resort will I use live (I do have some snakes that need kick-started every once in a while with live prey).
What I recommend is that you mark your snakes as to what they eat (PK, F/T, or live). Every time you feed, try to get one of your live eaters to take a PK and try to get one of your PK eaters to take F/T. Eventually you'll have everybody over to F/T or just a few that are the exceptions.
Good luck,
Jason @ Jason's Jungle

Because your reply is to me and I did no such name calling.

A little confused.

Joel

PS: Did you check out the link?
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3.6 Leopard Geckos (1.4 Albino)
~~20 Leo eggs cookin'~~
1.1 Ball Pythons
1.0 African Fat Tail Gecko
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.0 Blair's Phase Gray Banded Kingsnake

Look at the link at the bottom of this post. In the pic, is an example of what a live mouse did to a bp. If that pic doesnt change your mind about feeding live, then I dont know what will.
What a live mouse did to a ball python...

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Josh
My Email

how was a mouse able to do that to a snake?

How WOULDN'T a mouse be able to do that to a snake. Unless the mouse is retarded, it could EASILY do that to a snake that's nor interested in food.
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Would the snake have to be RETARDED to not realize something is chewing on it? And believe me I understand your point, i am def going to switch to frozen mice from now on. I just dont see how a snake allowed a mouse to do that.

Rob Woods

P.S. Where is a good place to buy frozen mice in bulk online?

I'm probably gonna get some crap for this answer, but here it is. How/why would a snake allow that? Go look at your snake right now, I swear your probably looking at the dumbest critter on earth!

Okay, maybe not the absloute dumbest, but they are none too bright. I've had one wiggle her way into the shield over her heat lamp and cook herself. I've got one that about 20% of the time misses in a strike for food, so he bites and coils the first thing to meet his jaws.....usually his own tail, which he steadily attempts to kill for at least 30 min every time, and he can't ever seem to figure out why it keeps twitching! Monday one struck and missed the mouse I was wiggling, so she coiled the hemostats I was wiggling it with and I had to wait for her to decide she couldn't kill it before I could get them back. I even read about a snake that ate a terry cloth towel! And I think it was Kathy Love who has a picture of a baby corn snake that decided to eat it's own tail (looks like a bracelot!)

I love my snakes dearly~ but they are just not too bright. And really, in a captive situation they can not fall back on instinct. No small mammal will stay within that close a proximaty to the snake if it were NOT locked in a cage with it, so the snakes instinct tells it "If I'm not hungry, just sit still and the mammal will go away" while the mouse is thinking "Well, if I can't get away from the snake, maybe I can snack on it?!?"

Sorry this is a little off topic but im curious....

Would the same be true for a more "advanced" snake? I have heard cobras are the smartest of all snakes. Would they realize a mouse was chewing on them and do something to stop it? Or is it a totally different situation since a cobra can do away with the mouse in one bite without much trouble?

Rob Woods

The only way that a mouse can get a snake like that is from serious neglect. I highly doubt that is from being left overnight, unless you have a 5 pound mouse... All the pictures you see of seriously hurt snakes are probably 3 or 4 days down the road, after a retarded owner (not snake) realised that their was 2 creatures living in 1 cage. I have fed frozen thawed, but I generally feed live mice. I have never had any injury that I could see after the meal was done. Ive done this probably thousands of times. Am I lucky? Maybe.... Or maybe I just pay attention to what I am feeding and when. I generally make the snake take the food from my fingers (holding the tail), and maybe (rare occasions) leave the mouse in his cage for 3 minutes and then remove it if the snake is not interested. Rats might be able to inflict a more serious injury, but generally I think the injury falls onto the owner not the food.
Thanks, Tom Baker

When I got Rachel, she was fed f/t. When she quit eating for FIVE MONTHS, I went to feeding live. I tried EVERYTHING to get her to take the f/t mouse, but she was to smart to be tricked. She NEVER gets fed unless I see her "hunting", and I NEVER leave her feeding box till she has that mouse securly. She strikes at the side of the mouse's mouth (pretty cool I think), THEN constricts. She once hit my hand, realized it was me and let go IMMEDIATELY! She was HUNGRY AND in a shed to boot! I don't think SHE is dumb!
I too had the idea that she is far to important to me to feed live and possibly have her starve herself to death, but I also realize I have to "listen" to her and what SHE wants to eat, not what I want to feed her.
Tom, I LOVED your post. When the whole truth of the matter is NOT told, rumors and myths get spread. I NEVER let her alone till she has that darn mouse! However, IF the mouse would show ANY agression towards Rachel, she would get fresh killed whether she wanted it or not!
Anyway, I have been feeding live for over a year and I have not had one problem with the mice OR Rachel not eating. Listen to your snake, learn what IT wants, not what you want. IF your snake eats f/t, then feed it f/t. If it eats live, then feed it live. That is the best we can do for our friends.

Thank you for this. You seem to feel the same way I do.

Muggle

Thank you! This was my point in the beginning! That the owner bears the responsibility. I did visit the link I was referred to, and the picture horrified me - not because the mouse was in the wrong, or the process of feeding live doesn't work, but because an owner would allow this to happen. I feed my BP every 2 weeks, and he's always very attentive as soon as we put the mouse in his enclosure. He has struck once and missed before, but he was still in his tree when he struck, so I wasn't too surprised. I stay and watch (for one, I'm facinated by the process, and nature!! For 2, I want to make sure all goes well.) the whole time, and wait until he has done his last stretch, and goes for a drink.

I made the commitment to my snake when I got him that I would take the best care of him that I could, I would learn about him, and do my best to keep him happy and healthy. I have him to satisfy my facination and curiosity, and as a learning tool for my 8 year old twin girls and my 9 year old step-daughter. They watch the feeding process, as well, and we discuss how it works, and learn answers to questions we come up with by researching. This includes the feeding debate, and we will be moving on to breeding questions eventually.

I would not leave his meal in the enclosure unattended. I think I have said this previously. I just want to reassure you.

as for the name-calling - I don't recall exactly who said what, but I was left with a feeling of being talked down to, and being thought of as stupid, and thoughtless when it comes to the care and well-being of my snake, which is not the case. If it was, I wouldn't frequent this board, and I wouldn't have posted my question. I apologize if I was on the defense. I retract my statement.

I do appreciate all of the useful feedback, and read the posts a few times each if I have a question, or to help the info sink in. Thank you, everyone.
Material Witness

that pic is part of our "feeding live" FAQ from our site, the link to which someone posted above in this thread. i did not take the pic, i don't know who did, but i am familiar, sadly enough, with the circumstances.

we have had this happen to us years ago, i just never thought of taking a picture of it, because it just cripples you and breaks your heart to see it.

a stubborn anorexic animal often gets fed overnight, in the peace and quiet. all of this damage can easily happen in just those few hours. take a look at the pic again, all of the wounds are new, the damage is fresh, that is not four days of rot staring you in the face. it happens overnight, in a few hours, easily. and snakes don't bite to "fight", they give up, coil into a ball, or basically just lie there and take the damage. when restricted to a small cage, the natural desire to flee is not an option, so they get destroyed by a single terrified mouse.

feed thawed because it is safer, and besides it is much more economical. the odds DO catch up. with one or two snakes it may take a while, but you will want to blow your own brains out when you have read and debated this "argument" and then you open a cage one day to see your favorite python tore up under your own "expert" watch.

then YOU will be the one that can't sleep at night.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

It possibly could happen in a few hours, but that looked like some serious injury. Was it a mouse? Had the mouse been fed and well cared for before being thrown in with the snake? Was the mouse starved going in? I personally try to never leave a mouse in a cage overnight... It has happened a few times in the past without any incedent. I donot doubt that s&#@ happens, I just have not had it happen to me.
I also dont see how it would be economically any easier for me to swithc to f/t. I get my adult mice from a breeder near me at $.40 for an adult. If one snake does not want it, another will. As long as they are alive, they are still a valuable food source that will not consume to much food or water. I will not lose any mice due to uninterested snakes and rotting mouse corpses. I also am not dealing with hundreds or thousands of snakes and lizards so maybe my viewpoint is different.
I dont remember exactly where I ever considered myself an "expert" in this post or any other. I only informed people of my experience with feeding live and the lack of problems I have faced doing so. So maybe I'll just try and keep my snakes safe under my "normal person" watch and hopefully sleep fine.
Thanks, Tom Baker

the "you" in the post just referred to generic snake keeper, one of the thousands that deals with this problem each year, it wasn't directed at you, i don't even know anything about you : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Man, you're getting ripped dude. I pay 20 cents for jumbo mice. 40 cents is NOT a good deal.
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.20 is just outrageously low! Even rodentpro sells jumbo adult mice for .55 each before shipping! For most of us, .40 a mouse is pretty darn good, not a ripoff at all.
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

yes Amen
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Man, you're getting ripped dude. I pay 20 cents for jumbo mice. 40 cents is NOT a good deal.
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If left in a cage overnight, a mouse will get hungry and proceed to start chowing down on the snake. That's why if you have to feed live, you gotta watch it the whole time.. and even then there's a risk.

I fed my BP live, until the mouse bit him while being constricted. This ticked me off. Now, I buy live, and whack 'em right before I drop them in the "kill box" with my snake. (We feed in a seperate box) I don't make the mouse dance, or anything silly like that. I toss it in after killing it, and it may be twitching a little, which is more than enough to stimulate my BP to feed. Personally, I only freeze if he doesn't take it after being killed, which has only happened 2x in 1 year. If I had a choice between frozen or fresh, I would eat fresh, so why not him? To me, this is the best of both worlds. You feed fresh food, but it doesn't bite your snake. You don't have to warm or thaw it, it's always the right temp. Kindof like breast feeding.

I'd like to weigh in on the tone of this discussion and relate a bit of background. All of the arguments people make for feeding LIVE rodents to herps were the norm in the mid-80s, when I was first exposed to snake keeping. For snakes that didn't feed, it was common to employ force feeding, which is rarely used now. I can remember the beginnings of what is now termed f/t feeding, and the skepticism with which some of the "old-timers" regarded that practice. I didn't have snakes for a while, and when a friend gave me his boa to take care of, I was suddenly being chastised for feeding snakes the way I was taught by research herpetologists and zoologists (not just hobbyests). I learned, but the message could have been delivered in a nicer way. The point, which I'll finally get around to, is that I believe we have come up with a logical, humane way to feed our herps. But popular opinion has changed before, and may change again in the future. Some people think stunning is humane, others don't. There may be a day when we feed our herps Purina instant-rat, which might not even include actual rat parts. What I'm saying is that when someone asks a question, we should educate them in the nicest possible way. Save the venom for the hots forums.

Thank you!!...bravo...etc

And of course I am of two minds....lol

Yes a snake would normaly eat live so it does make sense to feed live. But if you can get them to eat f/t then I say go for it . That how I was able to get my wife to let me get another snake after 3 years. Now I admit that last part has nothing to do with the snake itself but it has allowed me to enjoy one again an if not for that I wouldn't worry about it at all. Also in the past I have had an incedent with feading live. My Dumerils didn't always care to eat ON schedule and refused f/t. On one occasion he just sat there and looked at his meal as if he was thinking "oh, i'll get around to it". Seeing this I left him be for a bit because I knew he didn't like to be watched...upon checking back ( within 10 min.) I found that the mouse had bitten his tail. The mouse was removed right away and the snake was treated. The mouse of course was sacrificed another day...darn thing

np