Reptile & Amphibian Forums

the lobster roaches i've got are set up in the pics below. Does this setup seem good. I split them up into two tubs because they were really crowding each other.

The other question and the main reason for this post is they are chewing the hell out of each other, they are eating the wings off each other like mad. I've got water crystals in there for moisture as well as the occasional oarnge/apple/ veggies /etc, I'm feeding them really high protein content kitten food, 40% i believe ground up in a coffee grinder to a fine powder. I don't ever see them getting into it and eating the pile never seems to go down. It's like they prefer to eat off each other. I don't know what to do.

The other question that i have is what do i need to do about trying to get them to breed. I haven't seen any babies of any sort, maybe they are eating them? How long does it normally take for them to start breeding? do i need anything special? I bought them because i thought they were "prolific" the temps inside at the top/warm side are around 83 degrees. I've got a red light on one and a purple light on the other. I will be going to a "rack" type system in a couple of months just don't have the money right now. When i do i will have heat tape/flex watt on one side of the containers or underneath which ever works.

Thanks
Jeremy

Here's the pics

>>the lobster roaches i've got are set up in the pics below. Does this setup seem good. I split them up into two tubs because
>>
>>The other question and the main reason for this post is they are chewing the hell out of each other, they are eating the wings off each other like mad. I've got water crystals in there for moisture as well as the occasional oarnge/apple/ veggies /etc, I'm feeding them really high protein content kitten food, 40% i believe ground up in a coffee grinder to a fine powder. I don't ever see them getting into it and eating the pile never seems to go down. It's like they prefer to eat off each other. I don't know what to do.
>>
>>The other question that i have is what do i need to do about trying to get them to breed. I haven't seen any babies of any sort, maybe they are eating them? How long does it normally take for them to start breeding? do i need anything special? I bought them because i thought they were "prolific" the temps inside at the top/warm side are around 83 degrees. I've got a red light on one and a purple light on the other. I will be going to a "rack" type system in a couple of months just don't have the money right now. When i do i will have heat tape/flex watt on one side of the containers or underneath which ever works.

Hmmmm. Well, I really don't see anything glaringly wrong with how you have them set up. What I might tweak is....
Up the temps with the tape or heat pad.....I would lose the lights. I don't know if they are bothered by the red/purple lights but I would suspect it. I have an unregulated pad (so it runs about 135* all the time) under one end of one of mine's tubs and the other one I don't heat at all except to have it on an upper shelf in my herp room.....so ambient is 85 a lot of the time. I don't find mine to be much more or less prolific in a regular range of 80-120. My Hissers are very influenced by heat. But the lobsters breed like fleas all the time. If you haven't seen babies in bunches on the walls and you have had them more than a couple days I would probably blame the lights. The moms tend to be on the wall with a cluster of young around her for a bit after birth.
I am reckless with mine's care and feeding and they thrive. I put them in a tub, filled it with an inch of shavings, put in layers of crating and tubes and toss (literally) dog kibble ( I do NOT grind it up), baby cereal and greens on top at night, right before lights out. No water crystals as they are expensive and I never found them as useful as fresh fruits/veges. Usually it is swarmed and devoured in minutes. Literally I don't clean them out but maybe 4 or 5 times a year.
Maybe increasing your layers of crating? Up your temps and be sure there isn't any molding food.
As for them eating each other. Could be lack of layers to hide in and/or could be some dying and the others just taking advantage of the bodies.
I do remember reading somewhere that with roaches the males claim layers and if you have a bunch of layers it makes area available for that many breeding groups within the colony.
Sorry I can't come up with more for you.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Thanks for the tips, btw water crystals are actually pretty freaking cheap just as long as you don't buy them from the petstores or anything, i bought two pounds of crystals for $15.00 shipped. 1 oz makes a gallon of the gel that you can buy in the pet stores, and unless my numbers are incorrect theres 16 oz to a lb, so for $15 you basically get 32 gallons of gel , and the typical price for about 6 oz of gel is what $3.00 or more
so a gallon is i think 128 oz, so for the cost of 30 oz of gel at the stores you get 4096 oz. I think my numbers are right, you can check though and the gel has a typical shelf life of 1 year. If your interested i bought mine from http://www.watersorb.com/ and went with the medium crystals the roaches seem to love it as well as the crickets i have going.

Thanks again for the tips
Jeremy

>>Thanks for the tips, btw water crystals are actually pretty freaking cheap just as long as you don't buy them from the petstores or anything, i bought two pounds of crystals for $15.00 shipped. 1 oz makes a gallon of the gel that you can buy in the pet stores, and unless my numbers are incorrect theres 16 oz to a lb, so for $15 you basically get 32 gallons of gel , and the typical price for about 6 oz of gel is what $3.00 or more
>>so a gallon is i think 128 oz, so for the cost of 30 oz of gel at the stores you get 4096 oz. I think my numbers are right, you can check though and the gel has a typical shelf life of 1 year. If your interested i bought mine from http://www.watersorb.com/ and went with the medium crystals the roaches seem to love it as well as the crickets i have going.
>>
>>Thanks again for the tips
>>Jeremy

Thanks but I have done fine without any secondary water sources and...if it ain't broke........
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Jeremy
Three possibilites for chewing each other as the other posters stated. Diet is the first, not enough protien. We tried processed dog food at first. That just didn't seem to work, so we started making our own. No more wing chewing. Humidity can also have an effect on them, however it mostly effects their shed. We also use the gel and suppliment their diet with apples and carrots, some other fruits occasionally when our local produce stand has them. No other sourse of water. Overcrowding is also a factor. However, your set up is not overcrowded as stated by another poster. We have kept as many as 6000-8000 lobsters in a tub you pictured in your ad. Just a lot more egg crates. We now use large melomine boxes I make (6x4x2) these house about 15,000-20,000 lobsters each.
We use about 100 lbs of our gut load every two months, so we have a lot of hungry roaches to feed. Its not practical for the average roach keeper to make their own as we do. We grind up 8 different kinds of grains (50 lbs per bag) plus the egg shell calcium we process and the other viamins and minerals we add. It took us several years to get it just right. Lots of help from our Vet and our friend who has a PHD in Entomology.
We sell our gut load here on Kingsnake as do several others. Dog food just isn't going to give them what they need.
Heat is the factor for reproduction. 95 degrees works best, no lights, roaches like the dark.

Hope this helps,

Yosemite
Reptayls Ltd.

I guess I will jump in. The more research I have done the more I've found that most people are giving roaches to much protien. I at first thought this was the proper thing to do, but after speaking with several entomologist it has become clear that 20-25% is plenty of protien. More than that can actually shorten the life span of roaches. Also, a conclusion was made (need to find the article) that high protein caused some effect in the wings that led to chewing. I do still use a mixture of dog food, cat food, oats, bran, calcium in my food plus more, but in the 20-25% protien range. I feed fruits and veggies twice a week, and maybe use water crystals once a week. The water crystals really become handy if I'm gone for a few days.
James
www.blaberus.com

James,

I agree with you about too much protein can cause problems. I should have asked Jeremy just what type dog food he is using. Many dog foods just don't have enough to satisfy the needs of proper gut load. Many of the folks we have talked to were using the lowest priced dog food they could get. Low in protein and lots of corn for fillers. A few were using the poultry mash and this really is a bad idea. Again corn fillers and a pesticide added for grain beetles.

Yosemite
Reptayls Ltd

The food i've been using is purina kitten chow, it has 40% crude protein. I've heard they need lots of protein so i bought it but now i'm hearing they don't need a lot of protein. So far i've removed the lights leaving the temps in the low 70's until i can get some UTH stuff going. And i also have added a bunch more egg crates to each tub. Hopefully this will help things out. We'll see. I know that right now the temps are too low for breeding to happen but, hopefully for now it will help out with the wing chewing, and corpse eating.

Is it ok to put a human heating pad under the tubs, or is this a fire hazard. The tubs right now are sitting on carpet (the other reason i didn't buy UTH before). If i put human heating pads under the tubs do you folks think i'm going to risk catching the carpet on fire. I already singed the crap out of the carpet by absent mindedly sittin one of the lights down while i cleaned out the containers, I really don't want the same thing to happen if i use the heat pads.

Thanks everyone for their input
Jeremy

Jeremy

I have used a heating pad and it works fine. UTH will burn your carpet. I learned to hard way. I put a piece of plywood on the carpet after that one. We make our own UTH with flex watt heat tape. You will need some way to control the heat as this tape heats to about 110-125 degrees without some kind of control. A rheostat can be purchased or you can make one with a light dimmer switch,plug receptical,(we wired ours direct, so no plug)and insulated box. Any Home Depot or hardware store will have this stuff. If you decide to make your own there are a couple places here on kingsnake ads that sell it. Just don't buy the extra stuff they offer unless you don't want to put it together yourself. You will need a few basic tools that most people have anyway.

Hope this helps
Yosemite
Reptayls Ltd.

>>James,
>>
>>I agree with you about too much protein can cause problems. I should have asked Jeremy just what type dog food he is using. Many dog foods just don't have enough to satisfy the needs of proper gut load. Many of the folks we have talked to were using the lowest priced dog food they could get. Low in protein and lots of corn for fillers. A few were using the poultry mash and this really is a bad idea. Again corn fillers and a pesticide added for grain beetles.
>>
>>Yosemite
>>Reptayls Ltd

I think you have not researched poultry mash thoroughly. I use layer mash for my mealworms and have been told by some pretty successfull earthworm breeders that they use it almost exclusively. Now mind you, I wouldn't use it for a main diet for my roaches, but I have added it to the dog food as filler and for the vitamin/mineral content.

The fact is that there is medicated mash and there is un-medicated. When I recommend layer mash to potential insect breeders I always stress the UN-MEDICATED form.

The un-medicated has no added chemicals or pesticides. I get little grain beetles in my feed all the time. It has never hurt any of the insects that I feed it to and I will continue to use it as a bedding or part of the feed for all of my insects.

Just though this should be cleared up before everyone panics and throws out their layer mash!

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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

As a matter of fact Marcia, we HAVE researched poultry mash quite throughly. We have also discussed this in length with one of the largest producers of mealworms in the U.S, as well as discussing mash as a food (in general) with a PHD entomologist.

Yes, there are two kinds of mash - however, the majority of people who go to a feed store do not know they should be asking for the non-medicated mash. If they are aware of the two kinds, they are faced with a price difference of more than $12 per bag (if they get the better brand of non-medicated). How many folks do you know want to spend that on bugs?

And to be quite candid, we sure would recommend that people toss out the mash if it is medicated.

There is an excellent article that further discusses this - so you needn't take just our word for it. Check it out - the August 2004 issue of Reptiles Magazine; They Are What They Eat by Edward Kowalski.

You might change your mind and use a better food source for your insects.

Yosemite & Morgana
Reptayls, Ltd.

I will look that article up and read it. I am always looking for ways to improve my systems. However, most people recommend raising mealworms, and just about everything else, on bran. Has anyone ever looked at what that contains in the way of nutrition?
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Marcia,

We use wheat bran, rice bran; and oat bran in our dry insect diet. The red wheat bran is a great substrate for mealworms and superworms - what is so hard to figure out about the nutrition of wheat? Just look at all the various wheat products on the market for humans!

Yosemite
Reptayls, Ltd.

We aren't looking at wheat here, just the bran! This is the shell that protects the wheat grain. From what I understand this is little more than fiber. Maybe that's what the bugs eat but is it all we need to give our reptiles.

I'm not knocking you here, I am just trying to learn. I don't think you need to treat me like some sort of idiot because I am asking you to explain to me why bran is the best food for my lizards!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Well, I looked up that Reptiles issue and low and behold here is a direct quote:
"Ground, Dried dog food: dried flake fish foods and poultry mashyes can all be used with excellent results as the dry component of a healthy gut-loading diet for crickets and mealworms."

It then goes on to tell how to feed it to earthworms and lists some good moisture offerings.

The article does warn that reproductive problems have been associated with reptiles fed insects that have been maintained on poultry mashes because some of the grains may contian trace amounts of pesticides and herbicides and that these can disrupt the homonal cycle in reptiles and amphibians causing infertility.

It goes on to state that you can buy the more expensive mashes that are free of pesticides and herbicides.

I have been raising my MHDs since March of 1999 and have been raising my mealworms on layer mash just as long. In that time I have used the mealworms and a good part of the diet for raising my hatchlings. I have had great success in my breeding program and have not noticed any fertility problems.

Now I will agree with you that caution should be used in purchasing poultry mash and that one should make sure that it is free of herbicides and pesticided. It should be unmedicated as well.

But I also feel that my animals are proof that mash ain't all bad!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Marcia,
Yes, people can use mash - we already agreed to that fact. The point is that the general public thinks mash is mash is mash.... they are uneducated about pesticides and medications used in most mashes.

Poultry mash IS a problem... if you have done any necropsies of your dragons you would see what we are referring to. I suggest you do a fair test - take 2 hatchlings and give one insects fed with mash only and the other insects fed with grains and herbs. The first thing you will notice is length of life - but when they DO die - open them up and check the organs. On the "mash subject" you will see major differences - a sickly liver and small kidneys - not to mention the reproductive organs!!

Oh, and here is a little tip about fish flakes... most have dyes in them for enhancing colors in fish. If you want to use fish food - use koi pellets - much better.

If you want to feed mash (that has proven to be associated with many herp problems) that is certainly your choice to do so. And it sounds like you have your mind made up, so be it.

However... many of us insectivore breeders (chameleons; bearded dragons; geckos; skinks, etc.) extend our family to include the herps we keep. We ARE responsible for their lives, afterall. And as a mother - you would never catch me giving my human kids the "cheapest, least amount of work" food available. And that is my choice.

Best regards,

Thank you for answering my questions. However, you don't know anything about me. If my mind were already made up then why would I be asking all of these questions? You are judging me very unfairly!

Now I am going to ask if you will share your knowledge without all the anger. What do you recommend for bedding? I keep seeing everyone saying to use wheat bran, which I suppose is OK if you make sure to gutload your insects before feeding them, but it really has no nutritional value. I like to think that the insects are getting nutrition and then the extra gutload before feeding them off is what will benefit my babies.

I have seen recipes for making gutload but it is really spendy. So, what do you recommend, grains & herbs is pretty non-specific, for bedding prior to gutloading?
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Marcia,
You seem to be just as guilty of 'judgemental' comments. i.e."without all the anger"

We are not angry at anyone. But we have a right to our opinion on poultry mash - which is: "is it good for chickens".

We think it would be better if you engaged someone else in a conversation concerning this matter. We spend a lot of money making our gutload, and expense seems to be an issue so there is really no point.

Regards,
Morgana
Reptayls, Ltd.

>>Marcia,
>>You seem to be just as guilty of 'judgemental' comments. i.e."without all the anger"
>>
>>We are not angry at anyone. But we have a right to our opinion on poultry mash - which is: "is it good for chickens".
>>
>>We think it would be better if you engaged someone else in a conversation concerning this matter. We spend a lot of money making our gutload, and expense seems to be an issue so there is really no point.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Morgana
>>Reptayls, Ltd.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I have mine all tossed into a big plastic garbage bin with egg crates...I feed them baby cereal and a small bit of cat food, and they are just breeding like mad.

The only thing I can see there, is perhaps there's not enough cover...I'd toss a few more egg crates in, particularly put one over the food area so they can have cover while they eat. Keep 'em in the dark, they will hide from the light.