Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been told two conflicting answers of ovulation/mid-body swelling. Dan & Collette Sutherland, based on their Ball Python Breeding DVD, say the follicles are released and begin their journey down the oviduct to be shelled and fertilized. Another breeder told me that there's an "explosion" that occurs and the eggs are already fertilized at the point of mid-body swelling.

I bred two males (pastel and mojave) to a female who is now gravid and should drop on the 13th of April. I'm trying to predict who the father might be based on copulations before ovulation. I've included the pertinant record keeping below to get your opinion of who the father might be. This record card belongs to the female.

# Husbandry Note Date
1 Food: Rat (small) 11/23/2004
2 Food: Rat (small) 11/23/2004
3 Food: Rat (small) 11/23/2004
4 Pairing with Pastel Male 11/27/2004
5 Copulation with Pastel Male 11/27/2004
6 Copulation with Pastel Male 11/28/2004
7 Food: Rat (small) 11/29/2004
8 Food: Rat (small) 11/29/2004
9 Food: Rat (small) 11/29/2004
10 Food: Rat (small) 11/29/2004
11 Pairing with Pastel Male 11/30/2004
12 Food: Rat (small) 12/10/2004
13 Pairing with Pastel Male 12/15/2004
14 Pairing with Pastel Male 12/16/2004
15 Pairing with Mojave Male 12/16/2004
16 Food: Rat (weanling) 12/20/2004
17 Food: Rat (weanling) 12/20/2004
18 Food: Rat (weanling) 12/20/2004
19 Food: Rat (weanling) 12/20/2004
20 Food: Rat (weanling) 12/20/2004
21 Pairing with Mojave Male 12/21/2004
22 Pairing with Pastel Male 12/22/2004
23 Copulation with Pastel Male 12/23/2004
24 Pairing with Mojave Male 12/23/2004
25 Food: REFUSED Small Rat 12/27/2004
26 Pairing with Pastel Male 12/29/2004
27 Shed (entering shed/blue eyes) 12/29/2004
28 Lying Inverted 12/31/2004
29 Pairing with Pastel Male 01/01/2005
30 Pairing with Mojave Male 01/02/2005
31 Shed (complete) 01/03/2005
32 Food: Rat (small) 01/03/2005
33 Pairing with Mojave Male 01/13/2005
34 Pairing with Mojave Male 01/18/2005
35 Copulation with Mojave Male 01/18/2005
36 Copulation with Mojave Male 01/19/2005
37 Pairing with Mojave Male 01/24/2005
38 Copulation with Mojave Male 01/24/2005
39 Food: Rat (small) 01/28/2005
40 Lying Inverted 01/30/2005
41 Pairing with Mojave Male 01/30/2005
42 Pairing with Mojave Male 02/02/2005
43 Copulation with Mojave Male 02/02/2005
44 Lying Inverted 02/06/2005
45 Pairing with Mojave Male 02/08/2005
46 Copulation with Mojave Male 02/09/2005
47 Lying Inverted 02/18/2005
48 Mid-body Swelling 02/23/2005
49 Shed (entering shed/blue eyes) Pre-egg lay shed!? Whoo hoo!!!!! 03/09/2005
50 Shed (complete) Pre-egg lay shed!? Whoo hoo!!!!! Roughly 30 more days until eggs drop! 03/14/2005

The follicles don't get fertilized until they are released for shelling. Your female will retain sperm from both males so it'd be hard to determine which one is the daddy (unless of course you get a visual upon pipping). Hope this helps.
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Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

...fertilization occurs in the minutes after ovulation

...it is impossible (more than difficult) to determine paternity until hatching...either or BOTH males could sire offspring in this clutch...

Very exciting...good luck...I tried to do the same pairings this season but my Mojave was a bit of the eunich...BUT, there's next year...lol

SJM

I don't think the times of copulation matter all that much since sperm can be retained in the female. So it is possible for either of them to be the father, or even both. Each male copulated with her before ovulation, so sperm from each of them had a chance to fertilize the eggs. If I remember correctly, Morph King had a clutch last year where two different co-dom mutations hatched from the same clutch, but I don't remember which mutations it was.

I have the same problem you do. Female is gravid by either a pastel or a hypo. If they all hatch normal I'll be calling them "probable" het hypos, because I'll never know if they're all really pastel sibs until they are bred.

I have heard multiple times that when you see ovulation, it is too late for the female to be bred. I am not clear about exactly when the eggs are fertilized, although I too have the Seward videos.

...they won't be 'probable', they'll be at best 50% possible het hypos...sjm

But since they won't be the "conventional 50%-ers" i.e. offspring of a 100% het bred to a normal, I don't want to confuse anyone. I'll be keeping all females and giving at least one male to a friend, so I'm not too worried about what to say if I sell them.

This being my first set of babies, I know it will be hard to part with them, no matter how they turn out!!

Sperm is a liquid...........which means sperm from both males can mix together.........

From what I understand the ovulation is the act in which ova and sperm come together to fertilize. Once the ova have been fertilized the eggs move back down into the lower region to be shelled and develop.

I'd bet both males will be the father.

You'll know soon enough.

Corey

Corey, this is the way I had it figured. And if that's the case what in the world do you call the offspring? Pastel/mojaves??

Quig

Because both of the fathers were co-doms you'd either get mojaves, pastels or normals. (mojaves are co-doms right?)
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Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

Hi Corey,

It's been a while since college but my recollection is that ovulation (in mammals, anyway) is when the ova is released - and fertilization takes place after it is released. So, in people the ova is released and then fertilized in the fallopian tubes before and the very small fetus is implanted in the uterus.

But, a few things complicate this idea in balls. First, sperm can be stored for what seems to be a pretty long period of time. Second, what if fertilization occurs before ovulation? Ralph seems to think this happens and he feels like he can tell which breeding(s) are the ones that will "take" based on follicle size.

If fertilization occurs at ovulation and sperm is stored a long time, then you could breed a girl to a pastel early in the season and a mojave late, but expect both pastels and mojaves to be in the cluch b/c all the sperm were retained and are waiting for the chance to fertilize - odds say some of both made it.

If fertilization occurs before ovulation then it's not that simple. I guess in my head I feel like the breedings that matter the most are the ones that occur when follicles are between the size of a regular marble and the size of a shooter marble - in other words I lean toward them being fertilized before ovulation, I guess...but its hard to understand how that would work.

Christy

I'm totally new to this so this may seem like a stupid question, but if the fertilization occurs before ovulation, whats to prevent a fertilized follicle from being absorbed?
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Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

...no evidence of such in any species...period. sjm

Alrighty - you should know .

But, my question is this - I breed a girl to a normal male half the season - until her follicles are big. Then, last ten breedings before ovulation are to a co-dom - she lays a clutch of six all normals. Pretty likely male #1 is the dad, I'd say. If all the sperm are just waiting together to make a race for fertilization - why did dad #2 lose out? I feel like I have seen this a number of times. Seems to me dad #2 would have had the better shot b/c of more live sperm.

Thoughts?

....a better chance...but there are several things to consider:
1) male #2 might be young and shooting blanks...
2) half the clutch (or 1/3, or 2/3) may be co-dom sibs, and
APPEAR to be sired by male #1
3) the normal male may have been significantly more fertile than
male #2...contributing a greater % of sperm, say 75%...

This is the dilemma of using a normal and a co-dom to breed a female.

sjm

Aside from the obvious answers like one having a better sperm count, etc. I would think because of the general reproductive process of sperm storage until ovulation that the snakes sperm has a greater "self life" than what we would think. I've even heard cases where sperm has been stored from one breeding season to the next. I'd say that would even up the odds considerably if they are designed in this manner. Just a thought.
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Tosha

8.10.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and currently un-named)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope)
7.9.5 Fish (1,2,3,4...)
0.0.1 Frog rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.2 Lizards rescued from pool skimmer

np

guess the best course of action is to use one male only then you know who the father is, and use the other one for next year or another female.
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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons

Not sure if this happens in reptiles, but in mammals most sperm where never meant for fertilizing. Their jobs however are for blocking and killing the sperm from other males from ever reaching the egg/s. Also if some mammals sense "his" female has been with another male, he will have a much different ejaculate then before, full of even more of these blocker and killer sperm. Again i have no idea if this goes on with reptiles, but considering they probably mate with several partners in the wild, it very well could. Fascinating stuff potentially going on inside these animals. Hopefully someone out ther with some research data might jump in here. Thanks don

...yes there's something to this subject...it's a little understood area particularly in herps...add in sperm storage to REALLY complicate things...sjm

I do many back-up and multiple breedings involving co-doms and doms. Last year I only produced one clutch that contained both Pastels and Mojaves. A friend of mine in Chicago produced 2 such clutches.

In all but one case, when bred to multiple males, the last male in was the father and he only had one breeding in a few of the cases. Also in all of the instances the second male was younger than the first male in.

Hope this helps.

Mark
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www.ballpython.ca

I had a female ovulate last week that was only bred once (that I seen ) by my Spider male. I thought about her situation and after about 24 hours I decided to put a adult Pastel male in with her , I was concerned she may slug out or have poor fertility, she had other previous chances with the Spider but didn't seem to want anything to do with him other than the one copulation back in mid December. The Spider was in full shed during her ovulation so I didn't want to gamble on his breeding ability while in deep shed so I put the Pastel in with her instead. By now she was over 24 hours into full ovulation and I figured I give it a shot anyway. The Pastel did lock up with her within an hour or so, actually they bred for about 30 hours. I realize this seems like along time but I do know what an ovulation looks like and this particular female ovulated well over 36 hours, I don't know exactly why she took so long but she was HUGE for a total of almost 48 hours. The Pastel bred her during the last part of her ovulation so it will be interesting to see if they are all Pastels, mostly Pastels, or a mixture of Spider and Pastels (assuming they are fertile that is). This may help me figure out the importance of last minute copulations. Many breeders have told me they don't bother breeding them during ovulation, this is an area that I disagree with some on, I feel that if the female lets him breed her during ovulation it is probably for a reason and NOT a waste of time as some people believe. More often than not they will breed (at least here anyway) during ovulation so I don't pass up the chance to get a fresh dose of sperm in there just to help fertility if nothing else. This particular female will prove my theory even moreso if I get a high percentage of Pastels , that would mean that the last 24-36 hours of ovualation is still an "open window" for a new male to father the clutch. Some feel that she would be gravid by the Spider and that I wasted my time with the Pastel that late in the game. However, I'm not sure I totally believe I wasted the Pastels breeding efforts and hope to find out just what really happens. Spiders are more valuable than Pastels, but I actually would be tickled if the Pastel sires them , simply because it would give me more options in the future as far as "last minute" breeding attempts are concerned. This is one of the cool things about the codoms as you would not be able to prove this out until years later if you were using different recessive morphs, the codoms are an all or none deal making it easy to tell what's going on , without any guessing involved. Just thought I'd share this, I thought it was interesting and I am anxious to see the results in a few months! Anthony McCain-McCain Reptiles.

np