Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, right after posting the last update, the female went into horrible confulsions/seizures. Soon after, she stopped breathing.

I did get some video footage of the seizures after the major ones had already passes.. If you are interested on seeing them, click on the links below.. It truly is heartbreaking seeing an animal suffer like this. As I pointed out from the beginning, I did not expect her to survive, and honestly, I am amazed that she survived this long.

http://www.treemonitors.com/dyingprasinus1
http://www.treemonitors.com/dyingprasinus2
http://www.treemonitors.com/dyingprasinus3

Take care everyone,

Bob

i hope she lives keep me updated u can email me ok thanx

umm... I thought I made it clear in the post that she died (stopped breathing).... So, she is dead. That last seizure sure wiped her out... Thanks for your concern,

Bob

I personally know who they came from. I was suprised to hear of how they arrived to you.

Was the heat pack placed near the animals? How many heat packs used? Also was thier any air holes in the box?

I recieved a reptile once that was place directly over the heat packs its tail was brittle and black in color, so were other parts of its body very crisp. I believed this was due to over heating and cooking on the heat packs rather then freezing.

The box was packaged in the same fashion as any other package I've received from some of the 'big name' dealers, who ship dozens of packages out each day.. The packing couldn't have been any better and delivery was right on time- couldn't have gone any smoother... There was only one heat pack in the box, and when I opened the box, it was as cold as ice. Whether the heat pack never activated, or ran out, I don't know... The box was extremely cold when I opened it up, and the animals were cold and limp...The male died later that day, and the female died this afternoon.

It really is unfortunate that this happened to me, as the seller said that all of the other packages she shipped out with similar animals all received fine and unharmed... Bad luck I suppose...

Thanks for your condolences..

forgot to log back in to my normal screen name.

Cheers,

Bob

The reason I asked about packing is if it is off any any area things can go way wrong. I am not sure what you mean by packed the same as big name dealers. I have had many shipments and even with the same big name dealer the packing can vary at times.

If the monitors were in bags with no newspaper or substrate in the bag itself with them and placed in contact of the heat pack then they can get cooked. I was wondering if you looked into that as I have recieved animals in the fashion as well as stapled to the side of the boxes.

I cannot think of 1 time I recieved any that had frost bite. Not even animals shipped in winter. Such as one package that consisted of only a cardboard box and an old flanel jacket sleeve. The animal was in a bag place within the sleeve and then left sliding all over inside of the box. It had no airholes and no heat pack. The animal arrived very very cold to the touch. Sorta like an ice cube. It was heated up slowly, first room temp water, then warm water. That animal pulled out of it and is still alive in my care.

Perhaps your box was exposed to colder temps.? This shipment to me went through weather in the teens. Maybe I was lucky?

Also what type of heat pack was used? If it is the hand warmers used for hunting that could be the problem. They heat up fast get very hot and then fade out right away.

Sorry to be rather ambiguous with the packaging details....

They were both in snake bags, filled with shredded newspaper. They were not pinched off by the knot in the bag, stapled, etc.. Inside the box was one of the standard 40hr heat packs, not one of those tiny little handwarmer heatpacks- I had a guy ship a snake to me once with those...didn't last either...

The box was the standard, white "Live Reptiles Handle With Care" box, with a corresponding styrofoam box lining it. The box was sealed up nicely, there were no dents or cuts in the box..

Other than the heat pack expiring/not working, everything else appeared to be fine and dandy..

I never really said that it was frostbite for sure, but I really have no other way to explain why both animals had the same affliction on one of their front arms(male had it on his hind leg as well), after being unpacked from an ice cold box. Since I really cannot think of any other affliction that it may be, I will refer to it as being frostbite.... But I suppose I will never know..

It's such a shame that two perfect animals have died, especially a flawless 2.5 year captive female... I was actually amazed that the female was the one to initially survive... They are usually the frailer of the sexes....

Cheers,

Bob

well many things can and sometimes do go wrong. I just have never seen any with frostbite. The only time I recieved a crispy limbed critter was when its bag was placed directly on the heat packs.

I have had plenty arrive cold, non working heat packs, or no heat packs used at all during winter. Some arrived looking dead but thawed out and are alive, others arrived just a bit cold, some arrived stiff and frozen. But the limbs never looked like your pictures. The only time I had anything like that was the charred animal. It was sitting on 3 heat packs the sections of the body touching the heat packs looked like your animals limbs. Black in color and crispy. That animal also went through tremors (siezure) like symptoms and died.

You mentioned the female may have been blind?

again sorry

Well, what you describe does match the symptoms that mine exhibited, however the heat pack was cold, and I can't see how both animals could have been exposed to direct contact, especially when the male had his injuries on opposing sides of both front and hind legs... I suppose that is a possibility.. But with my experience with heat packs, either they work or they don't.. Each heat pack has the same amount of reactant in there, which usually takes the same amount of time to expire..

She was neurologically impaired once she was slowly warmed up, and didn't act or behave 'normally'. I did not handle her at all the entire duration that she was alive.. Yesterday, prior to her tremors, I tapped on the glass to see if she would move, her pupils did not move/adjust to my finger being right in front of her... So I tested to see if she could see anything by moving my finger close to her head, right in front of her eyes... No flinch, or acknowledgement of my finger's presence... Now I am not sure if that was a late-stage affliction, or occurred due to the cold shipping, but she was never neurologically 'normal' for me... The first day she did twitch a bit, although that ended towards the end of the day I received her.. The male was far worse with the twitching and apparent neurological injury...

Regardless, from now on I am only going through delta dash, as there is less time for somthing potentially dangerous to go wrong...

Cheers,
BOb

your right heat packs are hit and miss. I make sure all of mine are working and heated before just tossing them in the box to ship but even then they sometimes fail.

If other precautions are taken with the box it usually does not turn out the way yours has.

It is hard to say the cause for sure, just thought I'd share something similar I had experienced.

Your right you should always go with the shipping method you feel most comfortable with.

First, standard shipping boxes, fish boxes, do not have enough insulation. Normally about 1/2 to 3/4 inch, these were designed to ship a bag full of water(heat sink). They do not work very well for shipping reptiles in extreme weather.(hollow)
Also, there is nothing wrong with the shipping companies like UPS. They expect you to know what your doing. Delta, sets limits as to what weather they will ship in. They only ship when safe. The the shipper or buyer, SHOULD KNOW what conditions to ship in.

Both you and the shipper should have limits as to what weather you will ship in. These limits should be based on species. For instance, V.tristis, V.gouldi, V.varius, V.panoptes, V.albigularis, etc, can take below freezing temps without problem. On the other hand, many of the indo monitors do not fair well when exposed to sub freezing temps for any lenght of time. As well as some of the northern Ozzie species like. V.storrs, V.glauerti, etc.

We have set limits that I am comfortable shipping in. We do not ship in when temps dip below 25F. We have even lost customers because they would not wait. They would rather risk the life of the monitor.

We also use a full two inches of tight fitting insulation. Adding heat or cold as needed.

Please consider that thin insulation is only good for a few minutes of exposure to cold or heat. Insulation does not stop the transfer of temps, its merely slows it down.

I fear that many of the Fla shippers ship mass numbers of low value reptiles and if they lose a few, they simply replace them. They have no need to change their ways. Consider that when having reptiles shipped to areas of extreme weather. FR

Unless you paid to have them shipped Delta Dash. Carriers such as UPS, FedEx and DHL were never intended to transport live animals. I am aware that it is common practice- but it is nothing short of animal cruelty- and should be illegal.
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

In the past I have had some bad experiences with different carriers, basically along the lines of delayment of delivery, etc. Therefore I had been dealing exclusively with delta dash to have animals shipped to me. The person that I purchased the animals from was unable to ship delta dash(which I would have preferred)and assured me that they would be alright, and that they were experienced shippers. So I took a gamble. Yes, I agree, it was my fault for agreeing to do so. I chose a day that that was quite mild to ship, thinking that that would help increase the chances of a safe arrival.

I had put this thread up to warn others of the dangers of shipping animals through the standard ground couriers.. I have learned my lession (again), and will no longer trust shipping animals through anything other than the airlines.

As for the couriers, I was not aware that it is illegal to ship through them, as I was under the impression that many of the large distributors/dealers had accounts with them for shipping such animals with..

Thanks for bringing that up.
Cheers,

Bob

I do hope that others will take heed of this, but I doubt people will change.

Actually Bob, I said "it should be illegal". That is just my opinion- not a statement of fact.

Thanks,
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

Why do you want more laws, when you are totally bogged down with them now.

You have the power to choose. You should not allow reptiles to be shipped poorly. You should make your purchases with people that ship properly.

I have shipped hundreds upon hundreds of boxes, with Delta(I am a verified shipper) UPS, and USPS(before 9-11) I have had only one mishap, and that was with Delta. A freak snowstorm stranded the plane on the runway.

But remember, I take care in how I ship. I do not use the minimum, Its simply not worth it(the life of the monitor/s)

In fact, there are already regulations on how to ship reptiles(not very good) They are designed for importers and such.

Heres what could be the problem with this case. The fla. shippers use very small boxes in order to keep the price down. When shipping overnight, there is a weight/size combination to pricing. For instance, a size limit of 12x12x12 inches. Above that and its a minimum 15pound charge, below that size, its a 4 pound charge. There is a huge difference in cost.

Remember, mass&size=how long it takes to change a temperature. Small boxes will change temps rapidly, no matter how much insulation or heatpacks. Normally, they put packages on the dock early mourning before the sun comes up. That is the coldest period in a 24 hr day. They do so, to meet the overnight requirements.

Again, do not recomend more laws. Use your own power and require others to make the proper preparations. After all, there is a life at risk. FR

I hate the idea of more laws as much as anyone. Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers. Having said that, Something I hate more is disregard for living creatures. I am not an animal rights nut- those people are not much different than terrorists.

Carrriers such as UPS are not intended to transport live animals. If you can argue with that Frank, let's hear it. Why you would ship animals you supposedly value through UPS is beyond me. Seriously UPS can hardly be trusted with unbreakable dry goods.

My statement that "it should be illegal" is along the lines of your comments that 'if you were king nobody could keep monitors without being able to raise their own food supply first' (I agree). I was expressing my annoyance at the issue- not saying more laws are really the answer.
Thanks,
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

monitors poorly and with disregard to the weather and its effects on the monitors. So it is written, so it shall be done.(I like these kind of laws) actually, I said, if I were king I would not allow people who cannot provide whole food items to their charges to keep them(slim chance in heck that I will be king of anything) I don't think I said, they had to raise their own food.

Since 9-11, I have shipped using UPS, I have not had one single late shipment, all were overnight(red tagged) and all made it on time. The rest is up to me. I prepare the boxes so that they can be shipped by normal people who do not have to be concerned whats inside. We make them so they can be left in the sun for hours or in temps down to 25F. I feel thats our job, not theirs. Their job is to get it there on time and for me they have. Again, not one single lost or harmed monitor.

On the otherhand, Before 9-11, we used the USPS for a while, and they were late with overnight shipments around half the time. Also they do not ship overnight(express) to about half the country. Over half the country the fastest they ship is 2nd day(priority). They indeed were late a lot, but again, not a single harmed or lost reptile in many years.

So maybe, you should dwell on better prepared shipping boxes. Instead of laws(even if false laws) FR

The fact remains that UPS and similar carriers were never intended to ship live animals. Buying relatively expensive lizards and having them shipped via UPS (or similar carrier) is just dumb. I doubt Bob will do that again anytime soon. When I see monitors I'm interested in, one of my first questions is: do you ship Delta Dash? If a dealer cannot or will not ship via Delta or another airline, then I'll pass.

I do agree that good packing can make all the difference. If you are telling me that you have been shipping many, many monitors via UPS- with no problems at all, then I say you are lying or getting forgetful. UPS has a high enough loss rate that claims like those don't seem possible. More importantly, I have personally experienced poor service from UPS, and spoken to many others who tell similar stories.

Delta is far from perfect and there does seem to be increasing problems with them, but if the animals arrive DOA you have some recourse to collect the declared value of the animals- with UPS there is no absolutely no recourse.
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

I have been using ups for many many years myself. I have had only a few problems. Animals arriving late but they do arrive and are safe and sound. The only other problem i had was the very first animal I shipped it was late and arrived d.o.a.. I refunded the money seeing I guarantee live arrival. After that I made sure I packaged better. Since then I have had 0 losses out of hundreds of packages sent out.

If you'd like me to send delta please call them and have them come out here and verify me. That would be great unfortunatly I am still waiting for that inspector to show up. He is only about 2 years late.

"Delta is far from perfect and there does seem to be increasing problems with them, but if the animals arrive DOA you have some recourse to collect the declared value of the animals- with UPS there is no absolutely no recourse.
Neal"

So thats what it is about to you? Recourse if something does go wrong? Here I thought you were just worried for the animals life.

So you have had problems with UPS and the only thing preventing you from using Delta is lack of verification? It seems that in some areas verification is no prob while some describe the probs you do.
So it is your position that UPS is better for shipping live animals than airline shipping?

I really thought you were sharper then that Jody. It takes pretty dense people to not understand that if a company stands to lose money when the live animal is DOA, then they might try a little harder to keep it alive. Delta Dash service guarantees live arrival. UPS DOES NOT! It is well known that packages indicating live reptile contents get kicked and thrown against walls in UPS sort facilities.
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

you sure are hell bent on this.

Funny how we tell you personal experience. You come back with theories of people kicking boxes and yelling at me cause I cannot get them to come verify me? haha until they verify me I cannot ship with them it is that simple.

I am sorry you have a problem with me shipping UPS I certainly do not have a problem with using them. My animals arrive time after time alive and well. It is unfortunate I lost one but it had nothing to do with UPS themselves and everything to do with it being my first animal I shipped.

Your right to an opinion is the same as mine. Why start name calling? Just cause I didnt come on and say oh yes your right??

Shipping a reptile is definately all in the packing. When I sold my first set of Leopard geckos.. I shipped them through the postal service...Now, this wasn't smart, as the postal service lost them... for 2 weeks. The reciever had paid for Insurance on the package so we were able to collect the money on them and we refunded it to the girl. The day the check came back to her, the animals were also found and came in at the same time. They were still alive.. after 2 weeks in the mail system. Just before that, the same person I shipped to had recieved a box through UPS with 2 DOA's in it. They came in on time for her. Its all in the right packing method. These animals are hardy animals, monitors included. Its always best to get them to destination as quickly as possible, however, packed correctly, stress should be minimal on them....not packed correctly and the stress alone can kill them. Making sure movement is restricted to a small space and they feel solidly secure is important...darkness helps especially with predominantly diurnal species like monitors. It keeps their stress levels down.

Since that incident with the post office, I rarely use them for anything more than mail. I use UPS and haven't had a problem with them yet..For those of us that only do small time business... trying to eal with Delta is not an option. Does this mean we are any less professional and concerned about out animals and business? No... as a matter of fact, I've been convinced that the smaller business and breeders can actually care more about where their animals go than the larger ones since these people have probably spent a lot of time with the animals. The only exception is in importation...small breeders are usually very concerned about where their hatchlings go.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 2.1 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystic))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

it is all in the packing. However know of two cases of animals being crushed. Both shipped with delta one was smashed by the forklift, the other fell off the forklift and was run over.

Hmmm maybe this isn't so safe after all? Its a bit easier to pretect the box from being tossed around or kicked then it is a vehicle running it over.

I have shipped just a very few times and a few months ago I wanted to ship using Delta Dash. They wouldn't even bother with me at all. I was not going to do enough business with them to even get in on their so called verification process. So to keep touting the virtues of Delta Dash, the reality for many of us is that we are not allowed to use the service at all due to Delta's own restrictions. I would love to use their service, but I can't force them to accept my shipments so have to use alternative shipping providers for the few times I may ship. I have never been able to have anyone ship anything to me either using Delta Dash, and not because of the cost, because the party shipping to me could not get verified either. To have a service such as Delta available would be great, but it is simply not there for most of us.

Pam

it should be "illegal" for people to be too ignorant to ship properly, and that is about it. we have shipped thousands of live animal shipments over the last decade, and i can count losses on one hand, they do a terrific job.

there wouldn't be a reptile hobby at all if everyone had to pay $75 and drive to the airport for every shipment.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

"we have shipped thousands of live animal shipments over the last decade, and i can count losses on one hand, they do a terrific job."

With all due respect, that is almost word for word what other dealers have told me. My experience, and the experience of others contradicts this. I simply don't believe it.

If a drive to the airport and $75 shipping are out of the question, then maybe one should reconsider keeping monitors.
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

but it's true, and you are being naive, and for no apparent reason, argumentative. whatever, i don't know what you motives are, and this isn't that interesting...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Naive would be to believe "it's the truth" because you say it is. You may be confused about my motives but I know exactly what your motives are for putting your spin on the issue. I addressed Bob and he apparently agreed with me. It is you who are being argumentative and defensive- because you have something to defend. If the customer is willing to pay for better shipping why would you argue against it? Isn't that interesting....
Neal
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pale reason hides the infinite from us

the shippers fault the couriers fault. Whose fault shmoose fault.

Stuff happens sometimes and if you's cannot accept that then you's shouldn't be doin this stuff in the first place.

“Neil and Bob – Is that your names or what you do? Ohh!”

Then ahhhhhh........., will you call Delta for me and explain to them how long I've been waiting to be verified, and when they say " Ohhh we'll have a inspector out there next week", then I guess you going to say " Oh I'm sorry you were supposed out here last week and the week before etc." You see, Delta isn't going to let anyone become verified anymore. The company that Delta hires to do the "Verification" paperwork also pays the Delta employees ( Inspectors ) to do the said inspection. However, this company hasn't been paying the inspectors for at least a year and a half now. So who is doing the inspections? Why nobody, of course. I've been trying to get varified for 2 years now. I've talked to the Orlando hub ( Me being in Florida ), and have even told them I would drive to the Orlando hub each time I had a shipment. However, They aren't allowed to open up a shipment, or just even take a peek and see that the packing and stuff is Delta approved. The thing is, is that the Hubs want your business, but the company ( Delta ) won't let them have your business. Clear as mud, Right?

In my experience shipping is shipping. If you ship you accept the inherent risks. If you do not then you (anyone is) are being foolish. The last two times I have gone to the airport to pick up animals via delta dash they have not been on the flight they were supposed to be. On the other hand all deliveries to my door that I can recall (UPS and FedEx and DHL) have always been on time in the last couple years.

If you think shipping animals is cruel and should be illegal that's fine. One could argue keeping them is just as cruel. But shipping with UPS or FedEx is certainly not more cruel than shipping with Delta. That is just silly.

If you are more protected financially in the event of a lost package or dead animal with Delta then that is another matter altogether.

Thanks,

Ian

hey Bob, i haven't read every reply here, so maybe it has been asked...

but how sure are you about the origin/history of these animals? there have been quite a few adults appearing on the scene, and since they are actually illegal to import, seemingly every one is a "long term captive" of a few years. i would expect that is untrue about 98% of the time, even from a well known source.

that could certainly help explain the quality issues you saw, and the results as well...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hey Robyn,

The pair I purchased were not a freshly imported batch... I am well aware of the stuff that people try to pull with fresh imports.. These animals were 2.5 year captives and 3.5 year captives. They came from a reputable source, not one of these shady brokers/dealers that you often see with scrappy WC's for sale.

The seller sent me several well-represented photos, which helped with my decision to acquire this pair. The animals shipped to me were the ones in the photographed, it is just unfortunate that they arrived in the conditions that they did..They were slightly dehydrated, but as far as body weight and overall condition goes, they were immaculate.. The female was very robust, unlike the pencil thin females we so regularly see up for sale..

Are you guys over at PE looking to sell one of your females by any chance??? Hahahaha..I guess the wait is on until another nice, healthy female 'falls in my lap'. Sorry I haven't had a chance to give you a call like I said I would a couple of weeks ago, I'll try later this week. Cheers Robyn, talk to you later..

Bob

yes, but i have gotten burned a number of times by a "reputable source". blind, neuro-impaired, dehydrated, and shipped poorly? sorry, i don't believe it : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

don't believe the source, that is : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

In this case the animals were exactly as Bob said.
I have personally been at the residence of the owner of the tree monitors. I seen a few of them as babies and how each was setup.
So in this case I can vouch that they are well cared for LTC setup by a keeper for breeding.

Did you receive a refund?? I hope the dealer did not stick you with the bill for this tragedy. Also I am assuming you are being respectful by not giving the dealers name?? I am sure he/she does not deserve the respect. It would be nice to know so my buisness never went in that dealers direction.

>>Also I am assuming you are being respectful by not giving the dealers name?? I am sure he/she does not deserve the respect. It would be nice to know so my buisness never went in that dealers direction.

He cannot provide that information on the forums. The site rules clearly state:

"Using pethobbyist.com to post warnings or notices about other persons or businesses, whether a pethobbyist.com classified vendor or not, is a violation and may be grounds for immediate termination of your account."

So, *if* it is his desire to hand out that type of information - it has to be done OFF the forum.

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PHWyvern

Does that mean I can't complain about Jody?
After all he shipped my lizard using UPS and it was an hour and a half early. It was warm, fat and healthy. It obviously wasn't run over. I even got whipped when I opened the bag to inspect her.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

>>Does that mean I can't complain about Jody?
>>After all he shipped my lizard using UPS and it was an hour and a half early. It was warm, fat and healthy. It obviously wasn't run over. I even got whipped when I opened the bag to inspect her.
>>
>>Scott
>>-----

Nope sorry - no complaining about humans allowed generally speaking. Of course if you want, you can try to report the monitor abuse, though I honestly do not think there is all that much that can be done about resolving the issue of physical abuse inflicted by a monitor onto a human.

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PHWyvern