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Hi. For some reason I found myself starting an article at Wikipedia on "Fer-de-lance" and thinking about editing "Common lancehead" . Since I know hardly anything about snakes, I found myself with a number of questions. Since anyone can edit at Wikipedia without even signing in, the best result would be if people who actually know something would fix or expand these articles (keeping a neutral point of view and preferably citing sources), and then I could go back to birds and science fiction and other things I know about. Hint to academics--this might make a good project for a sufficiently advanced student. Warning to everyone--Wikipedia can be addictive. (I could quit any time, though.)

However, in case no one wants to do that, I'll ask my questions. Is Bothrops atrox found in Central America, or are references to it in C.A. the result of confusion with B. asper? How incorrect is it to call either of these species "fer-de-lance"? Was I right to say that many scientists and hobbyists prefer the names "common lancehead" for atrox and "terciopelo" for asper? How common is the name "barba amarilla" in English? Is it fair to call these snakes "highly venomous", or should that term be reserved for those Australian snakes that can kill 50 mice with some tiny amount of venom?

Thanks,
Jerry

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>>However, in case no one wants to do that, I'll ask my questions. Is Bothrops atrox found in Central America,

No.

>> or are references to it in C.A. the result of confusion with B. asper?

Yes. Bothrops asper was long regarded as part of B. atrox, but has generally been considered distinct for the last 20-30 years.

> How incorrect is it to call either of these species "fer-de-lance"?

Depends whether you believe in standardised common names. Those who do normally reserve the term fer-de-lance for the Martinique species Bothrops lanceolatus, but in relaity, it is widely used for a number of species of lancehead.

> Was I right to say that many scientists and hobbyists prefer the names "common lancehead" for atrox and "terciopelo" for asper?

Yes.

> How common is the name "barba amarilla" in English?

Uncommon AFAIK

> Is it fair to call these snakes "highly venomous", or should that term be reserved for those Australian snakes that can kill 50 mice with some tiny amount of venom?

How long is a piece of string? Basically, drop-for-drop and in mice, their venoms are not all that impressive compared with many other venomous snakes. However, in real life, they often inflict lethal bites or cause massive local tissue damage. Call that what you will

Cheers,

WW
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>>>>
>>>>However, in case no one wants to do that, I'll ask my questions. Is Bothrops atrox found in Central America,
>>
>>No.
>>
>>>> or are references to it in C.A. the result of confusion with B. asper?
>>
>>Yes. Bothrops asper was long regarded as part of B. atrox, but has generally been considered distinct for the last 20-30 years.
>>
>>> How incorrect is it to call either of these species "fer-de-lance"?
>>
>>Depends whether you believe in standardised common names. Those who do normally reserve the term fer-de-lance for the Martinique species Bothrops lanceolatus, but in relaity, it is widely used for a number of species of lancehead.

Ah, reality. It's sometimes inconvenient for amateur encyclopedists, but I like it anyway.

Can you tell me which species are called fer-de-lances? So far I've got B. lanceolatus, caribbaeus, atrox, and asper, in what might be descending order of correctness. Are there others, or is it just a question of how loose you want the terminology to be?

>>> Was I right to say that many scientists and hobbyists prefer the names "common lancehead" for atrox and "terciopelo" for asper?
>>
>>Yes.

Too bad. Maybe because of the weight of tradition, or just because I learned "fer-de-lance" in childhood, I like it better than "lancehead". If I'd been there (not likely) when they were making the new common names, I'd have voted for "common fer-de-lance", "Martinique fer-de-lance", "rough [or velvet] fer-de-lance", etc.

>>> How common is the name "barba amarilla" in English?
>>
>>Uncommon AFAIK
>>
>>> Is it fair to call these snakes "highly venomous", or should that term be reserved for those Australian snakes that can kill 50 mice with some tiny amount of venom?
>>
>>How long is a piece of string? Basically, drop-for-drop and in mice, their venoms are not all that impressive compared with many other venomous snakes. However, in real life, they often inflict lethal bites or cause massive local tissue damage. Call that what you will

I will. Thanks for your very helpful answers. I'm going to do some editing now.

Jerry Friedman

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>>Can you tell me which species are called fer-de-lances? So far I've got B. lanceolatus, caribbaeus, atrox, and asper, in what might be descending order of correctness. Are there others, or is it just a question of how loose you want the terminology to be?
...

Before you answer that, I have looked at the EMBL page at http://srs.embl-heidelberg.de:8000/srs5bin/cgi-bin/wgetz?-e+[REPTILIA-Species:'Bothrops_SP_atrox']. Of the species listed there as possibly part of B. atrox, Wikipedia lists only leucurus and moojeni, so maybe I should mention them at "Fer-de-lance" too.

By the way, if you're Wolfgang Wüster, I wonder whether you're quoted correctly at the EMBL page on B. asper. It says, "Has often been confused with B. atrox and hence erroneously reported from Trinidad and El Salvador (W. Wüster, pers. comm.)." This makes sense for Trinidad, but as you just told me, B. atrox isn't found anywhere in Central America, so it doesn't make sense for El Salvador.

Thanks again,
Jerry Friedman

>>...
>>
>>>>Can you tell me which species are called fer-de-lances? So far I've got B. lanceolatus, caribbaeus, atrox, and asper, in what might be descending order of correctness. Are there others, or is it just a question of how loose you want the terminology to be?

Basically the latter. Personally, I just don't worry about common names, unless they are well established.

>>...
>>
>>Before you answer that, I have looked at the EMBL page at http://srs.embl-heidelberg.de:8000/srs5bin/cgi-bin/wgetz?-e [REPTILIA-Species:'Bothrops_SP_atrox']. Of the species listed there as possibly part of B. atrox, Wikipedia lists only leucurus and moojeni, so maybe I should mention them at "Fer-de-lance" too.

They are not usually called that.

>>
>>By the way, if you're Wolfgang Wüster,

I am

>>I wonder whether you're quoted correctly at the EMBL page on B. asper. It says, "Has often been confused with B. atrox and hence erroneously reported from Trinidad and El Salvador (W. Wüster, pers. comm.)." This makes sense for Trinidad, but as you just told me, B. atrox isn't found anywhere in Central America, so it doesn't make sense for El Salvador.

There seems to have been some crossed wires there. There are indeed no reports of either B. asper or B. atrox from El Salvador, the latter becuase it does not occur there, more surprisingly in the case of the former. In the case of Trinidad, the form that occurs there is definitely not B. asper, despite some literature suggesting this. It is one of a series of slightly differentiated and genetically diverse forms occurring in northern South America that are very close to or part of B. atrox.

Cheers,

WW
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In the big picture there are other snakes that are more toxic as Wolfgang said but my Juv. Asper's "Knock down" power is impressive. Only my Echis can compete with in its ability to quickly render mice "Inert"

Al
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