Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I've finally started construction on my 75 gallon vivarium that I've been planning for the last year and a half or so. I've looked at all 5 pages that are up on this forum, and I've read all of the mixing posts, but I still have to ask. First, I'm looking into getting a larger dart frog, but not one that's horribly common. YES, I have experience with dart frogs (successful experience), namely auratus, leucomelas, pumilio, tinctorus, and E. trivittatus. I'm thinking of trying histrionicus. Second, what species (NOT other Dendrobates) can this be safely mixed with in a heavily planted 75 gallon? I've heard elsewhere of smaller day geckos being housed with many dendrobates, but I'd like to avoid them. I have kept some type of tree skink, though I could never remember the scientific name. It superficially resembles our north american five-lined skinks, with the yellow/black striped body and blue tail. I was also wondering about some of the smaller Dasia species, Dracos, and dwarf geckos (yes, I realize these usually prefer drier conditions). Also some of the treefrogs such as redeyes, tiger-leg monkeys, or smaller ones such as clown treefrogs. Mind you I'm not throwing in all of these. Perhaps just one or two with the dart, depending on how the vivarium actually turns out. Anyway, sorry for the long post, and I'm not trying to start any arguments. Just some questions, and wondering if anyone's tried keeping any of these with darts before. Thanks for any and all help.
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0.0.1 Piebald Ball Python
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"I'm thinking of trying histrionicus. Second, what species (NOT other Dendrobates) can this be safely mixed with in a heavily planted 75 gallon?"

It is my opinion that the histrionicus that are occasinally available should be put into the hands of those that have extensive experience with other egg feeders, not in a display terrarium containing multiple species. I'd be interested in hearing why you would want to do that in the first place? Why histrionicus? The color varients and locales that seem to be produced most often are ugly brown frogs that cost upwards of $350 and, from what I've heard, aren't very bold. To me, it would seem like having a bright blue frog that cost significantly less money and was out in the open all day would be more apealing.

To answer your question about mixing, some have kept small geckos (Phelsuma and others), as well as Anolis with their dart frogs. A few others have kept small Hyla species together with dart frogs. When different species are kept together in one cage there are many more potential problems that occur, and more often than not, things end up failing. I would recomend not mixing different species. Usually a safer mix is keeping different species of dart frogs together. Those from different genera can work well, such as Dendrobates azureus and Phyllobates terribilis, or Dendrobates auratus and Phyllobates vittatus, but even with these combinations there are still many possible problems. Good luck,
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Devin Edmonds
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com

Hey, it's why I'm asking, really. I was thinking of going with E. trivittatus, because I have had experience with them before, but they were never very bold either. Maybe one of the morphs of auratus would be nice. I was going to go with pumilio, but having only two frogs as small as pumilio in a 75 as densly planted as this is going to end up being...I'd never see them. I'm thinking of going more and more for the trivittatus. I have easy access to one right now at a decent price, a sub-adult one that's solid black with the bright orange stripes. I've never kept them in a planted tank that big though. Any hopes that they would be a bit more bold in there? or do they usually hide anyway?

As for the others, the ones I'm really considering are the Draco lizards. I have horrible luck with day geckos...they always end up hiding on me, and when I go in to do anything in the tank, they make a break for it :-P. Anoles are another option, but I'm not a fan of the more common species, and anything other than the greens and browns, and the giant species, are VERY difficult to find. And if I can ever get ahold of another one of those tree skinks...I just wish I could remember the name. And of course the treefrogs. I remember the point someone made of the large crickets bothering the darts, but I do like the idea someone had of putting a bowl in the terrarium for the crickets. I still have a number of things to figure out.

Draco species fare poorly in captivity as they tend to come into the country in terrible condition.

I strongly do not recommend mixing species from disparate Zoogeographic reasons as there is a potential for parasites/diseases that are novel to one or more animals becoming established and potentially killing something (this the potential method of how the mycoplasma that is killing the Gopherus species in the USA).

If you are going to try to mix species, you need to really evaluate the microhabitats in the enclosure before choosing the species with which you want to work.
I would suggest trying some of the small gonatodes or sphaerodactyline geckos or some of the small hylids. If the tank is set up correctly then you may still not see any of the animals. Setting up a multispecies enclosure just to get more action is usually a good method by which to fail.

Are you referring to Dasia as the arboreal skink? If this is the species then they are likely to attempt to predate on the frogs.

Ed

The arboreal skink I'm thinking about isn't a Dasia. I completely forget what it is. They are flat(ish) with a pointed face. Their body is striped laterally with black and yellow, and the tail is blue with the same black stripes. It was mentioned/pictured in one of the Reptiles, Living Vivarium articles a while back when they did a large vivarium with an emerald tree boa, and also on the cover of a large 'Lizards' book at Barnes & Noble...the book had a picture of one lizard on the top half of the cover, and the skink (maybe it's a lacerta..) on the bottom half. Anyway, enough about the skink. As for the Draco lizards, I realize that they do not come in very well, and I've had them before.

As for the disease topic, it seems everyone says something different. I've also heard that animals as far apart taxonomically as frogs and lizards do not commonly exchange diseases, and that it's actually more of a risk to keep two more closely related herps together (say, a dart and a mantella or even hylid, would be more likely to transmit disease to each other than a dart and any species of lizard).

As for me trying to get more action in my tank, that's the furthest thing from my mind. If they find a nice place and want to curl up and hide, that's fine. That's why I'm leaning more toward the trivittatus. Anyway, you mentioned small hylids, but besides the north american types, what other types are actually available? Small hylids don't seem to take up any sort of niche at all, at least around here. The smallest treefrogs I come across, besides clowns, are red-eyed and tiger-legged monkey treefrogs. Well, I'll leave it at that instead of making this a huge thing. Now, assuming I could get Dracos, make sure they're healthy and eating, and hopefully deworm them (difficult with them because of their size, but I managed to do it last time), do you see any problems with safely housing them with larger dart frogs with minimal conflict? And I'm still going to try to find the name of that skink/lacertid.

Well that is not a skink based on that description. I can't remember the genus and species name off the top of my head but it is from Africa not South America and is related to the Platysaurus.

As for the disease issue, here is a short list, rana and iridioviruses, coccidia, Pseudomonads and Aermonads, amoeba, and various parasites that require more than one host can infect both reptiles and amphibians. You can cross index all of the infectious agents if you want a more comprehensive list by using Amphibian Medicine and Captive husbandry, Biomedical and Surgical Aspects of Reptile Medicine as well as several other texts. Its a little hard to argue with the evidence in print.

Hyla leucophyllata is available right now and periodically H. ebracatta is also available.

I would not suggest any terrestrial caecilians as the really small species are pretty much obligate termite feeders and the larger species have a high probibility of eating the frogs (I know Dermophis will as they readily take pinks and are recorded as consuming lizards.)

Ed

I think the lizard you are refering to is holaspis guentheri.
And the mixed tank is a bad idea. And I would like to know where you would get dendrobates histrionicus from, and if you were to mix them, I am sure the frog mafia would be after you.

I've decided to stick with a dart that is actually available to me. Right now, I can get pumilio, auratus, leucomelas, and E. trivittatus. All I'm doing is looking for possibilities. The tank is not even done yet, and when it is, it's going to be running for a while until the plants adjust to the high light. After that, the plants will be added and I will watch the temps, humidity, etc. Once I've gotten that much, then I will look at what animals will be compatible with the environment, and out of those, what will be compatible with each other. If it turns out only one fits, then so be it. I'm just trying to gather some possibilities to look into in the meantime.

Large, mixed vivariums are AWESOME!

Things to consider, because as you know, things can get complicated.
1) You have the right idea with a heavily planted rainforest vivarium. The animals need to feel like they are solitary.
2) Choose species that use different parts of the habitat. You are heading in the right direction with terrestrial dart frogs and aborreal frogs/lizards. Having a tall enclosure as opposed to a long one (as in a 75 aquarium) may be more benificial when mixing two possibly conflictory species. Another niche that may work in your aquarium is aquatic. If you like unusual, consider caecilians!
3) Have your habitat up and running several months prior to adding animals in. This lets you know that it is self sustaining, the plants are doing well, and you don't have to rip it up and start over after the animals are in.
4) While doing #3, have the animals that you choose in quarantine to make sure you are mixing happy and healthy animals. 3 months is minimum.

While more asthetically pleasing, it is also sometimes more satisfying to have all the animals at least closely geographically related. (eg. south american theme vs madagascar theme). I also try to have at least one brightly coloured species, and then have others more camoflaged to entice peering eyes to search.

I don't know much about draco lizards so can't comment on them specifically, but anything larger than the dart frogs won't do. I personally wouldn't go much larger than an brown or green anole, but that definatly doesn't limit you to the anolis family!
The whole tree frog family works, as does some small fish species (many tetras are south american). Medium sized, slow moving, and vegetarian millepedes may also be very interesting.

I hope my insight has been benificial for you

Unfortunately I don't have the option of a taller tank at the moment. But I completely agree with you with letting the tank settle and quarantining the animals. I work at a pet store, so it's no problem for me to get in animals and keep them there...I can even have the store vet deworm them and everything else for no charge while they're there. The draco's are basically the size of anoles. I was thinking of a SA themed tank, but I do still have a lot of planning to do. Besides the more exotic anoles, what other South American lizards are there that fit the size limit? Fish are definitely going to be an addition...probably one of the pygmy rasboras. Caecilians sound nice, though from what I remember, the aquatic forms are currently illegal in the US, and the terrestrial forms would probably burrow too much and kill the landscape. Unless I could somehow track down those impossible-to-find species that remain 6 inches or less. I tried millipedes once, and they promptly ate my phal. orchid in the first night. We currently have 7 other species at the store though, so I need to try them out seperately and see which ones will leave the plants AND wood alone, and be content feeding on leaf litter. I might possibly try adding one of the larger, slow-breeding roach species. Stick insects too, as many are very specialist feeders. The beetle options are also a possibility, since a lot of the larger species are fruit eaters (again, the burrowing problem too). I've been thinking this out for a VERY long time, but I still have a long way to go. It'll probably be another 2 months before the tank is finished, and then another 4 months or so before I put any animals in.

Be sure to post a picture when it's done. I've never mixed except for some tetras and other small fish in a paludarium with the galacs, as well as a few things that didn't work out, such as red clawed crabs that refused to stay in the aquarium section, burrowed around in the land area, annoyed the frogs, and were generally pretty destructive to the terrestrial plants. This is all good information, though. I have a 180 gallon aquarium with a humongous 14 inch tilapia, one electric blue cichlid and a chocolate plecostamus as the only residents. The tilapia has lived for years, gradually graduating in tank size, and I keep hoping it will die so I can have the tank for frogs, but it has no such intentions. It has too much personality to relegate to the roaster, and actually belongs to one of my "adopted" troubled teenagers, so doing away with it is not an option. My current goal is to outlive the tilapia and oust the electric blue and pleco to a smaller tank. It would make a much more attractive rain forest than a (necessarily) barren of plants aquarium.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

I'll try to get pics as I go. I don't have a digital cam, so it might be difficult, but it's going to be a VERY long time in coming. The tank is coming in Wednesday, so that's when everything with begin. I plan on finishing the basic forming and structures in about 2 weeks. After that though, the patience has to kick in, as it's going to be VERY high light (probably 220W compact flour.) so all of the plants that were not raised in greenhouses will have to be adapted to high light for 2-6 weeks depending on the species. So, I'd say 2 months before it's completely done (minus the plants I might run across and add in here and there), and then another 1-2 months before the animals are in, unless I decide to go with some of the animals at the store I work at...I've KINDA had them set aside for about a month now, keeping a close eye on them...so if they don't sell, and I decide to use them, they might be in there when the last plants go in.

Small aboreal gecko, Lepidodactylus lugubris. Environmental conditions identical to darts. This species gets no more than 3 inches head to tail tip. They are parentogenic (all females, asexual reproduction). They are used in dart frog terrariums all the time and do quite well. Spend most of their time midway to top of terrarium, so little or no interference with the darts. Non-aggressive species. They will feed on very small crickets, which the darts can also eat and they will eat fruit flies (but do much better on small crix). Babies are tiny and will feed on fruit flies. They are egg gluers, so in-situ incubation is the norm. I have two colonies now and also supply some to my friends for their dart tanks. They are hardy and fairly inexpensive running about $25 to $30 at shows (but can be hard to locate at times).

Regards,
John
lireptiles@yahoo.com