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Little help in this research is needed.

boids-n-more Mar 29, 2005 01:05 AM

Not too long ago i had some heat tape go out on me and take some of my pride and joys with it. Now i have e-mailed some Big breeders asking questions like what type of heat tape they use and if its ever failed and if so how long of service before it failed. I gave them my brand , how i had it hooked up and the 2 years of service i got out of it before it went bad. I also asked about some special crimper just for heat tape and if they had any info on them or where i can find them. To date its been 5 to 7 days since i sent out the e-mails and i know i didn't send to every big breeder but not one has sent me a reply. I'm doing this cause i can't find what went wrong with my heat tape and i would like to seeif its a pattern with this brand or maker. If you guys and gals would like to send your brand and info it would greatly apprecited and when i get numbers i will post them here so everyone can see what brands are working the best and what type of connections work the best also.

UPDATE TO MY PROBLEM----- I had a piece start to seperat, the element is in the center of 2 plasic sheets and the sheets started to seperate. I removed it let it cool down and plugged it in to measure the heat at different spots. At some spots it read 110 degrees where it wasn't seperated , at points where seperation started it read 125 or - 6 degrees at points of full seperation it read 146 degrees at a constant. on a new piece with nothing on it it reads 112 - 114 on the whole piece. on the piece that seperated at the center of seperation there is some light brown coloration. Just wanted to give you guys and gals an update on this and mayby what caused my problem and what to watch out for. If you would rather e-mail your info to me its boids1@netscape.com. Any info will br greatly apprecited Paul

Replies (7)

bcijoe Mar 29, 2005 08:22 AM

I am not too experienced when it comes to working my own heating elements/heat tape, but perhaps you are using heat tape that is too high in wattage/power?

I use cages from a well known company and low wattage heat tape comes in the cages. Even if left running, without control, the max temps I get are 80-85 degrees.

I don't know why one would risk using a higher wattage that can fry your animals. Seems this low wattage is more than ample.

Just my $.02

thanks, joe
-----
Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

RioBravoReptiles Mar 29, 2005 09:05 AM

I use the standard flexwatt tape, which as you pointed out is a resistive conductor imbedded in mylar film. This is a great product (though not originally designed for this use), it is durable, consistent and can be used in a variety of ways. I am something of an electrician and a controls electrician and here's my angle on your problem.

If there were any deficiencies in the tape or materials it is most likely they would have become evident fairly soon after you powered it up. Here I've got some lengths of 3", 4" and 12" tapes still operating with no breakdowns or problems after 15 years. Some arre terminated with those elaborate crimp-style AMP connectors (without THE TOOL) others are soldered.. actually, the nature of a resistance load (VS a motor load) is such that a poor connection would result in a cool tape, not a fire. . Compare those intallations to a few larger cages I have with drug-store type heat pads, those rigs I replace annually, you can see the deterioration of them and measure how the heat is being output unevenly. So from the viewpoint of an investigator (of sorts) something else contributed to the problem you had.

First, these systems work best with a proportional control system, not a rheostat or an on-off control.. the difference is that a proportional control uses input from the temperature sensor (placed on the tape) to provide only the amount of current (heat) needed to achieve the target temperatures. Whereas a rheostat chokes the current but provides constant power and an on-off thermostat gives shots of full current between off times. The rheostat cannot respond to changes in ambient temperatures.. if you set it up to give 95deg on the cage-bottom in the morning when the room is 70deg., later as the room warms the rheostat keeps giving the same current it was set to provide, very high temps can result. The fault most often seen with on-off thermostats is that the contacts fail, either in an open (or off) position or worse, in a closed (or on) state. Modern programmable proportional controllers are the very best way to go and are a real boost to Boa breeding.

Ok, back to your problem.. as you showed through your investigations the flexwatt tapes in good condition generate heat evenly and hardly enough heat to cause combustion in materials used in most caging. Plug them right in and you get about 120deg (f). And from my experience with the stuff 2 years is not long enough for the tape to fail under any reasonable condition. Other things, however, do change in a typical setup with these under boas or boa cages.

When we first set these up we're careful to position them properly so they are not too tightly wedged between the cage-bottom and the rack or shelf.. this is a prime factor in heat build-up and transfer. And also so the cage doesn't catch or abrade the tape as it is being taken out or placed in the rack. If the tape is under a stand-alone cage this is less of a concern. Over time though perhaps people change the tub and the clearance is diminished or the edges of the new tub are sharp or the form of the tub places more surface directly agaiinst the heat-tape.. also many composite materials (melamine, particle-board, etc.) expand or sag and this causes the clearance to become too restricted, making hot-spots and causing failures.

And lastly but perhaps most often overlooked.. that Boa which was 4 onces or 4 pounds when first placed in the cage is now 2-3 years later 10 times as heavy, and that weight is placed right on the heat-tape... all the while..

Bottom line recommendations:
1) No half-fast rigs with heating systems, best materials, construction, controls and monitoring.

2) Check and recheck everything, all the time.

Hope this helps!
-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

ChrisGilbert Mar 29, 2005 03:20 PM

Keep it up, you're doing a wonderful job!

Hoppy Mar 29, 2005 09:27 AM

I have two different types of cages with two different types of Flex Watt heat tape.
My oldest cages are from Doug Barrs. These are nice custom cages that did not come with any type of heat installed in them.
I purchased 11” by 12” sections or heat tape rolls from Big Apple supply and cut the tape to the desired size (11” x 2’ for the boa cages) I also purchased the recommended ends and clamps to hook them up. I use a simple corded lamp dimmer to control the output of a group of eight cages with a digital thermostat to keep the tape at 95 degrees. This tape is now 6 years old, has never failed however I do check the temps every time I walk into the room. The tape covers 1/4th of the cage floor space, so even if it did go wacky and jump up to the 120 degrees that it is possible of getting to, it would not be left alone long enough to cause harm to the snakes inside the cage.
The second type of cages that I have are Jeff Ronne Cages.
I had Jeff install the heat in the cages and he uses the low wattage flex watt heat tape (a better product in my mind now that I have tried both) Again I use a corded lamp dimmer to keep the tape a 95 degrees, but it appears that the max heat on this tape is about 110 degrees. In these snake cages about 1/3 of the cage floor is covered in this tape and a digital thermometer is also used to keep track of the temps. These temps are also checked each time I go into the room.
These cages are only a year old so I can not attest to the durability of this tape, but ti does seen to give a more gentle and even heat then the normal flex watt tape.
I hope this helps your research some.
Good Luck
-----
Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

boidmorphs Mar 29, 2005 09:46 AM

I have a friend in CA that just had a litter drop last week. When she looked in at the mother she noticed her neck was in the air all distorted and several babies were in identical positions. When my friend reached in to look at the babies she received an electric shock. It turned out the birth fluid had seeped underneath the electrical tape at the heat tape connection. She lost six babies from electricution and would have lost the mother had she not caught the situation in time. I'm not sure what type of heat tape she used but no matter what I'd avoid having any possible exposed connections on the floor of the cage for this reason. A spilled water dish could have had the same result.
This is not an issue with me because I do not use any belly heat, only back heated rack systems with tubs that are isolated from direct contact with the heat source.

Jeff Clark Mar 29, 2005 02:42 PM

...I have used flexwatt for 13 years. It is supposed to not be used inside the cage. Good people selling it say not to use it inside cages. I use it outside and under my cages and have had no problems. I have used it inside the cage and after about 2 years inside the cage with lots of humidity and moving cage furniture and larger snakes across it it will begin to wear and so I replace it. Like Gus posted it should be controlled with good thermostats. At full power it is too hot for anything but Bearded Dragons and they prefer to bask and need overhead heat anyway. Unlike Gus I have had good results with rheostats controlling my flexwatt. I use rheostats and proportional thermostats. IMO basic full power on off thermostats should be avoided. They supply full power when on and that is too hot using flexwatt. I would just guess that flexwatt at full power sandwiched tightly between cages may get so hot that that contributed too your delamination problem. Summation: Flexwatt is great product but needs to be properly controlled.
Jeff

>>Not too long ago i had some heat tape go out on me and take some of my pride and joys with it. Now i have e-mailed some Big breeders asking questions like what type of heat tape they use and if its ever failed and if so how long of service before it failed. I gave them my brand , how i had it hooked up and the 2 years of service i got out of it before it went bad. I also asked about some special crimper just for heat tape and if they had any info on them or where i can find them. To date its been 5 to 7 days since i sent out the e-mails and i know i didn't send to every big breeder but not one has sent me a reply. I'm doing this cause i can't find what went wrong with my heat tape and i would like to seeif its a pattern with this brand or maker. If you guys and gals would like to send your brand and info it would greatly apprecited and when i get numbers i will post them here so everyone can see what brands are working the best and what type of connections work the best also.
>>
>>
>>UPDATE TO MY PROBLEM----- I had a piece start to seperat, the element is in the center of 2 plasic sheets and the sheets started to seperate. I removed it let it cool down and plugged it in to measure the heat at different spots. At some spots it read 110 degrees where it wasn't seperated , at points where seperation started it read 125 or - 6 degrees at points of full seperation it read 146 degrees at a constant. on a new piece with nothing on it it reads 112 - 114 on the whole piece. on the piece that seperated at the center of seperation there is some light brown coloration. Just wanted to give you guys and gals an update on this and mayby what caused my problem and what to watch out for. If you would rather e-mail your info to me its boids1@netscape.com. Any info will br greatly apprecited Paul

boids-n-more Mar 29, 2005 02:43 PM

The cages i use i built out of 3/4 in plywood. I used 1x2 on the bottom to acy as feet all the way around the cage. The wood is stained and lacqured o this inside only. looking at the clearence under the cages i don't detect any sagging. The heat tape i use is 20 watts per foot. When i posted the temps i got the teape was not under a cage , it was plug into the wall and lets see if the seperation made a difference. It did so i posted it so you guys can see the difference. What i'm thinking what happened is , where my tape sepereated heat kept building up and eventually got to a temp that cause a meltdown whitch cause the wood on the bottom of the cage to start to smulder therefore ending in my small cage fire. Now when this happened i had a turn knob style (rheostat) thing plugged into it along with a powersurge strip. Now lets see if the directions i got on how to use this was correct. I was told to either solder or use clipes to connect the cored to the tape, i used solder cause i have soldered many electrical items from my job at the time. Then use this foil tape and tape it flat against the bottom of the cage , plug it into the rheostat ad just the temp and i'm done. Is this right or wrong this was my first time with heattape or flex watt. Ohh i also covered my ends with electrical tape so nothing was exposed. thanks Paul

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