Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lately I have read some different websites and articles and I wanted to ask a question. Are the pituophis animals that you find on RR bull snakes or gopher snakes?

One website says that gophers eastern limit is culberson and hudspeth county. Some other literature lists the gophers in presidio county.

Any thoughts or facts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steven Owens

if they are NOT gophers, you can fool me. While they may be inter grades , they are of remarkable gopher influence and LEGAL to sell ( because of some older non-wanted us to breed snakes of past ) at herp expos when the bull snake is not. I have had several biologist and herp knowledgeable folks look at ours and said definitely gopher.

They are definately gopher snakes. I say this based off of the morphology of the snakes that I have seen down there. They show many of the external characteristics of gopher snakes. In fact, I would say that they hardly even resemble bull snakes at all...

gophers.

gratefuldead, i thought my father was the only alterna/dead head nut? you two should start a club.

Add one more name to your new Grateful Dead/Alterna club! I'll be listening to "Jack Straw" as I truck down those west Texas roads in June!

Brad Chambers

"Leavin’ Texas, fourth day of July,

Sun so hot, the clouds so low,

the eagles filled the sky."

We'll be in Texas in May and again in June, but, I'll only be listening to the dead after bigwhitefeet falls asleep!!! DOH!!!

Look out now Bigwhitefeet. If it were not for the DEAD freaks, you youngsters would not know where to look for those alterna you so prize.
Later
Club President
saddleman

We are everywhere!!!

Hey Rick::::::: 34 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woohoo!!!!! Hugh

We may not know where to look, but at least i still have the sight to see um on the road

actually well thats not true, but also not the point.
Rick- The ole' man is leaving me in tucson in early may! i'll be stuck taking AP tests and finals while he is off galvanting around huntin altera and texas blondes

I am glad to see that some of the alterna folk have good taste in music and culture. I am a Dead NUT. Virtualy every trip I go on has the Dead or the Allman Bros streaming for the speakers. I usually listen to that ole number Lady with a Fan>Terrepene Station> Drums & space when I am hunting the bend late at night. If it isn't the Dead than it is String Cheese Incident (who I just saw three nights in a row at the Fillmore in Denver). We Deadheads should meet up for a social alterna/Dead gathering somewhere this season.
-certified Deadhead

Hell yeah it would be fun to meet up. Saw the boyz way too many times and still enjoy their tunes as much as ever. My son and I listen to Moe., Phish, a variety of bands of his choosing and the dead when we road hunt West Texas. He, and his siblings, are a tad burned out on the dead from growing up in my little music factory. They are happy for the change to downloadind and CD burning as it replaced the constant whir of tapedecks and @1:1 recording speed, it might as well of been playing as it taped!! As a result, I lay off too much dead for his sake when we hunt. But if the opportunity presents itself, a fine 70's dark star will be heard emanating from my vehicle as I ride the river road for silver grey banded beauties...

Hey Rick... Are you really gonna be club president???

I love Phish and moe. I have seen Phish once and moe. several times. You must like Panic then? I am enthralled with Cheese right now though. The Dead are and will always be my all time musical love though. A '77 Dark Star would do the trick. Or how about about the ole favorite Scarlet>Fire> Scarlet> China Cat> I Know You Rider>Scarlet. That was San Bernandino '77. We will have to meet up down there for sure. Mine will be the truck with all of the Dead, Phish, moe., String Cheese Incident and Allman Bros stickers. I'm excited, I knew that a Dead culture could be found somewhere in herping,lol...
chad

now, moe. theres a band! lol!

im just burnt out on the dead and phish.

moe. rocks. I have seen them about 6 times now and have enjoyed every second. I do have to say that String Cheese Incident is my favorite non-Dead band. I just saw them for a three day Winter festival in Denver and enjoyed it more so than any moe. show I have ever seen. What could be better than a bunch of ski bums playing bluegrass?

lol moe is awesome.
my father and i will be rockin' out all night long dark of the moon june, down juno and down in the bend.

I personally think there are 100% Gophers, 100% Bulls and intergrades on the RR. It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that the range of the gopher ends (or crosses) in NORTHERN Culberson but in Southern Culberson, along the river, I have found gophers continuously all the way to the RR. Most of the ones the I have found in Eastern Jeff Davis County however I would call bulls. Tomato / Tomoto. So I'm guessing there is no hard and fast line running north to South, more scattered populations in the Trans Pecos.

Here's another for ya. I've seen C lepidus lepidus in Hudspeth County in the Indio's, Eagles, Quitmans and Huecos. The ones in the Indio's, Eagles and Quitmans look 100% lep lep. BUT many in the Huecos appear (to me) crosses between lep lep and klauberi. Some possibly even 100% klauberi. Are there 100% klauberi in the Huecos? or are they lep lep? or are they crosses?

Just my uninformed opinions....
J
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

As for lepidus in the Huecos, if you go by the color pattern characters that Gloyd used to describe klauberi, those tan clean banded beasts from the south end of the Huecos are as pure a klauberi morph as any you'll find.

However, those characters that he did use do not hold up under scrutiny. For instance, as you move way west, using those characters, the great majority of Huachuca and Santa Rita (Arizona) Mountain individuals would key out to lep. lep.

Attempting to apply color pattern for taxonomic use in the lepidus group is about as useful as it is in the alterna group: not very useful at all (please note the clever tie-in to alterna to keep this post appropriate to this forum). I've examined several hundred museum specimens range-wide, and seen hundreds more in the field. There some trends that hold up, and some very clean populations here and there, but as a species they are so polymorphic within and between populations that it will drive one to despair trying to make taxonomic sense out of it.

Jason,

I forgot to say I love your website. Thanks for keeping it up and going. I look at it periodically just to remind myself of what West Texas looks like.

Look forward to seeing you out west.

Steven Owens

Gracias Steve...same to ya..
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

If I remember correctly, David Kizirian (now curator of herps at the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History) wrote his Master's thesis at UTEP on the contact zone between these two ssp. I believe he found that the contact zone is much farther east (like near the Pecos river).

I don't know how wide the contact zone is or where it falls in Mexico, but I suspect that RR snakes are true affinis.
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Chris Harrison