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What I have done over the past 3 years is introduce the female to the male in the male's terrarium for breeding purposes. I have always had a 100% success rate on the female's second shedding but not on the first shedding. I guess I am just curious what method experienced breeders out there prefer more...or which method do you think illicit a faster response from both male and/or female?

Thanks,
Ray

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RAY

Ray,
If it's working for you why change? I do it the other way around, after the female has the second shed I leave it in there and introduce the male to her and her shed. I rotate the male with females for 12 hours in and 12 hours out to visit other females. I find this works better when the desired male needs to breed with multiple females. Based on ones breeding plan/group you have set male breeders and what females you wish to pair them up with - 1.5 for this one 1.4 for another or what ever it may be. After they shed he starts to visit one another till you feel/know she is gravid. Then in goes the nest box. This is my method.
I am sure others have other ways but why change what is working for you.
Hope you have another great year.
Regards,
Adam

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Thanks Adam,

The reason why I am wondering which methodology is better is because I am trying to do a double clutch on one female this year. Normally, I would only do one clutch for any female but I think I would like to try double clutching on one that has put on a lot of weight (so I think she would be well equiped todo this task...lol). If I wanted to do double clutching, shouldn't I start mating them on her first shed? Otherwise, if I wait for the second shed, mating will happen sometimes first week of May, eggs will be laid on around 1st week of July... so right after that july laying of eggs is the mating for the goal of a second clutch... which means if successful, eggs will be laid again around september and then hatched in November. By the time the hatchlings are able to eat for this second batch of eggs, it may be too cold to be shipping this babies across the nation. DO you experience the same predicament on babies coming off of second clutches?

As always, it's great to hear from you and appreciate your time!!!

Ray

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RAY

Ray,
If you saw no interest in the pairing the first few times keep trying or wait for the second shed with hopes the male will be more interested. It is the best time to pair them up but sometimes we get lucky and have some that are interested sooner. The dates seem to vary with the breeder and there location so I do not agree that they work like that. I have some that are in the second shed now and have paired a few up based on there size after the first shed.
As for the late babies that is somewhat of an issue but there are some breeders that have clutches much later on in the season and shipping can be done safely. If you are shipping to the north it can be questionable, I stop during the winter months till temps are much safer in the spring. It's a tough call as it may be a hatchling that the demand is high for and you may wish to part with during this time or the demand is low and not safe to ship and best to keep them till the spring.
I still have left overs and they have grown well. These tend to do better at shows.
Kind Regards,
Adam

Adam, do you attend shows here in California?
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RAY

Ray,
No, Have not been that far yet. This year will be our first year that we (Selective Origins) are a vendor for the Daytona Expo, we (Matt and Nicci Turner, Lee Barrie and myself ) are very excited and should have lots of fun stuff to see. I hope to meet a few of the names from here face to face.
We have been doing the NARPC - Tinley Park - Chicago IL for a few years and have plans for another big one in Indy at the end of Aug. this year.
Still working our way up to get out that far.

I have not been to the Daytona show but I know that it is supposed to be the biggest reptile show... so that's one of my main goals this year in terms of attending (not vendoring) shows. I may also be able to go to one of the Indiana shows, as my girlfriend is from there. It would be nice to see people on this forum face to face someday.

Thanks and good luck to your show plans.
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RAY

please try to resize pics thanks

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Ray, your question leads to two of the three cardinal rules i formed over the past 30 years of breeding exotics, writing about them, and speaking about the processes:

1. There's no single right way to do anything.
2. If it works for you, it's a fine method.

(#3, by the way, is "don't believe all of what anyone tells you" but that doesn't apply here!)

When I raised the Australian Gouldian Finch (my specialty when i bred birds, like the hondos and pyros are now) i had a good bud here in town. I bred mine in cages, one pair to a cage, indoors, using woven wicker nests. He bred outdoors in colonies in aviaries, using plywood box nests. I'd say our success was roughly the same.

So here's how i do the snakes (also breeding harems of one male to many females, as adam describes). I put each female in the male's cage and watch. Within 10 minutes if there's only pursuit and flight, or nothing at all, i remove her. If they want to breed they'll show signs of that within minutes and they'll be hooked up within two to thirty minutes. they'll remain hooked up maybe 10 mins to an hour or more. When they unhook i squeeze a little sperm out of the female, check it under the microscope (to confirm a) that sperm got inserted and b) that there's plenty of live, viable sperm in the sample, that the male's not shooting duds). I usually rest the male a day and then put another female in, so he's breeding every other day, but it's not uncommon for a male to breed 4-5 days in a row. In an ideal world i get four good, high sperm, confirmed cops from each female but three's a satisfactory goal and i've gotten fine clutches when there was only one or two confirmed cops.

With the pyros, by the way, things sometimes happen MUCH more slowly and the sperm samples are often MUCH more difficult to express. So while i strive to get one or two confirmed cops from each pyro female, the pyro process is more one of leaving a pair together for a day or two at a time, and not always observing copulation but things seem to work out. It's worth noting i have a shorter history of experience with the pyros than with the hondos so I feel i'm still learning with the pyros moreso than with the hondos.

peace
terry

Thanks as well for your input. The microscope method is new to me and makes a lot of sense (and possibly save me time in case the male is shooting blanks or non-viable bullets...lol).

I certainly agree that if it is not broken don't fix it... and breeding after the second shed has always worked for me... but now, as I indicated above in my response to Adam, I am thinking of double clutching a female. That female just completed her first shed 3 days ago and I introduced her to the desired male but no interest on both parties...so am just wondering if I should introduce the male to the female instead (contrary to what I usually do). I guess another way to ask is, how can I better the mood for both parties to mate after the 1st shed of the female...

Anyhow, it certainly is wonderful also to hear from you Terry and is always a pleasure learning from you, Adam, and the other co-breeders of hondurans out there.

Thanks !

Ray
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RAY

I like to introduce a females freshly shed skin to the males enclosure and closely watch his behaviour, usualy after a first shed, he will look interested but soon looses interest.

The second post brumation shed skin most always results in great excitement for the males, from heavy tongue flicking, tail shaking to actually trying to copulate the skin. A sure sign this female is releasing her pheromonal perfume...

I don't bother introducing my hondos after first sheds, the 2nd and sometimes even the 3rd post brumation shed is when the action takes place. I like to introduce the girls to the boys enclosure and find that the male will not waste time smelling every square inch of her enclosure but immediately concentrating his courting behaviour on the female in his own pad.

I make sure to visualy observe and note copulations, over the years, I've noticed the females shedding, copulating, ovulating and laying eggs within the exact same week as previous years. This is when my notes become handy and earlier records prove invaluable in analysing breeding scenarios.
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Marc Bouchard
Selectively Bred Serpents
www.selectively-bred-serpents.ca

>>...over the years, I've noticed the females shedding, copulating, ovulating and laying eggs within the exact same week as previous years.

Hi Mark, how you doin?

question: have you ever varied the end of brumation during those years? I'm curious whether the onset of breeding is the result of
1) number of sheds
2) weeks since coming out of brumation
3) corresponding to a set calendar date
4) combination of all 3

in other words, if i warm my pyros one year starting feb 7 and copulations start march 4, if the next year i warm my pyros march 1 will cops start closer to march 4? Or april 1? Or....?

terry

Am doin good man! (said in a south Jersey accent)

Got me looking at my records, In the past, I've tried warming up early and also late. All of my AD females seem to be on the same biological clock every year.

The year I put them down early and warmed up early (October 1st to Dec. 1st) females all shed later then anticipated, readiness for copulation was noted only after third sheds. They ended up laying their eggs around mid-May for end of July babies.

In 02, I put them down late (most of my females had double clutched that year and I wanted to get the extra weight before the big sleep) Jan 1st to March 1st. That year, I felt the females did not have sufficient weight coming out of brumation and more food was given, shedding occured much faster then usual (probably accounted for the extra food intake) these same females ended up producing babies by mid-July.

In theorizing, my data would suggest females conditioned for breeding seem to produce within the same time frame from one year to another. We can artificialy manipulate temperature to successfuly breed anytime of the year. I just don't think we can however alter the given time frame for breeding in subsequent breeding seasons.

A good friend of mine will be cooling his hondos this summer, these were a little small to brumate last fall but will be up to size during the summer. He will then try the following year to cool in the fall for summer babies. I'd be ready to bet, his 1.2 trio will be producing winter babies every year after that.

DISCLAIMER - My nucleus of AD breeders is all but a very small sample to base facts on. The above is only what I've noted within my collection.
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Marc Bouchard
Selectively Bred Serpents
www.selectively-bred-serpents.ca

Yes, I have always been an advocate of record keeping of anything my snakes do, even the size and age of prey it took at any given moment in time... similar training I have had at the zoo that I volunteer to. They tend to follow the same breeding behavioral patterns, including shedding and such. So, thanks a lot for your input! Great hearing from you. Hope you also have a great year this season with your hondos.
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RAY

>>...breeding after the second shed has always worked for me... but now, as I indicated above in my response to Adam, I am thinking of double clutching a female.

waiting til after the 2nd shed shouldn't have any undesired effect on your goal of double clutching. Might even help--she'll have more body weight/resources going into the first clutch, if you feed her til an additional shed.

Hondos can breed late into the season. I rejmember i once got a baby from norm dam that hatched in late dec/early jan...it wasn't an early baby, it was a late one.

good luck!
terry

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RAY

I was at Applegates website doing some reading on colubrids. When he talked about double and triple clutches he introduced the male right after she laid eggs. He also maid an emphisis on feeding small meals alot during the whole pregnacey (spelling lol) and after breeding. Not sure if this will work with hondoes but its a though and equation to your puzzle. He goes in depth on his website so you might want to go check it out if you think it will work. Hope this helps Paul

Thanks Paul. In fact, I met Mr. Applegate at a show last year... great guy, gave a wonderful speech on his experience on hondos and nelsonis.

Have a wonderful rest of the week man.
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RAY