Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I used to get Reptosol liquid vitamin for my snakes. I injected it under the skin of the rats that I was feeding immediatly prior to feeding so that when the rat was digested the snake got the vitamin. My question is I cant find it anywhere. Does anyone know where to get this or any other good liquid vitamin?

I have often wondered about vitamins...I think we have a lot to gain from them, but I do think there should be proper research before useing them. Too high a dose could be leathal. Anyone have any imput on the subject? Andy

just kidding. That is a good question and hopefully we can get some folks on here with some knowledge about V's to answer it.

No, I am not a Vet and I do not play one on T.V., but I will graciously share my experiance on this matter.A few years back, I really got into studying and using Natural Herbs and Vitamins for my own well being and the difference that they have made, is more than noticeable. I have not even had a common cold or flu in years. The Vitamin, that I use on myself is Sea Silver and I also use Coral Calcium and Ester C and one more thing that I will bring up in a moment. I started using Sea Siver on my snakes " Sea Silver is made from colloidial silver water and fused with many vitamins and minerals. Silver, is one of the few things on earth that Bacteria and Viruses cannot build an immunity to. This, like most Natural Cures can be downplayed by doctors, but I know what it and other Herbs have done for my quality of life and others. " I usually put a single drop on the rat or mouse about every third feeding for babies and up it to about 2 or 3 drops up to five foot and five foot and above, I give a little better than a half of a cc injected into the pray. As I said; " I do this about every third feeding. " I have seen no bad effect from this and the animals seem to be very vibrant and more alert. As far as dosage, I can only tell you what I do. This is not an exact Science and unless you get rediculous, I do not believe you will have to worry about overdose, " I never have. " Another one of my little secrets is something that I LIVE BY for myself and my Reptiles and it is Acidophilus. Acidophilus, puts back the good bacteria in yours and the snakes digestive tract and brings the acid levels up a little bit. As far as I am concerned, it is a GOD SEND. It helps to stay more regular and helps to make digestion more productive and helps keep BAD BACTERIA at bay. I have used it to turn peoples problem Emeralds around for years and it does great for boas. It is very similar to Bene Bac. To get more bang for your buck, you can by 30 to 50 pills of it at your local pharmacy for 10 to 20 bucks. I give it to my Reptiles for maintanance about every 3 to 5 feedings and new arrivals get it every feeding for about 12 feedings. Just put the pill in the oral cavity of the prey item. You CANNOT OVERDOSE on Acidophilus, they will simply pass through what is not needed. I am giving away, way to many secrets here......Good Luck.......Johnson Herp

I think you may have something with the Acidophilus, as the good bacteria is benificial to the snakes, and I also have taken it. I am wondering about the Silver though. Minerals may be good, but what effect could they have on our snakes long term? How much can snake livers and kidneys handle? I think we have a lot to learn yet about dosage and what actually benifits our animals. I hope someone out there is working on it, so we can all benifit from it. If I was going to try anything, I would try a small piece of a good quality multi vitamin and then only use that 2 -3 times per year. Andy

I have made this statement before and it seems to really upset some people, but there is no " Real Reptile Medicine. " It is all hit and miss and there is no REAL money or for that matter Real interest being put forth by the medical community on health matters concerning our beloved creatures. Experiance and trial and error or still the mainstay on what should and can be done on most health matters concerning reptiles and most of this comes from keepers who have been around awhile and have tried different things. As I have said numerous of times; " Making mistakes early on in this Hobby IS what led me to have an understanding of what works and what does not. " I understand your concerns on minerals and silver, but colloidial silver is made by positively charging water and breaking down the molecuelar structure and the silver is present but in very small and absorbable amounts. " If Sea Silver bothers you, I have also used regular ole crushed centrum vitamins. I have never seen anything but benefit come from either one. Never, have I seen a ill effect or a change in defecation or urates as far as having a strong or weird smell or consistency. I have used either or for many years now.......John Johnson

The hed vet here at the Tennessee Aquarium, highly recommends a reptile Vitamin called Nekton Rep, I have seen it here and there, but have never used it. It is my personnal opinion that; " A vitamin is a vitamin and even though they claim different formulations, it is still just a vitamin. " The only exception to that rule is liquid vitamins, that are more readily absorbed. I believe that would apply more to human consumption more so than Reptile.Reptiles do not drink and pass urates as fast as we do and even a solid vitamin like a centrum, will be more readily absorbed by a Boa, than a Human. "Nekton, may be the way to go and may make you feel more comfortable, if you try it, let me know how it goes.......Johnson Herp

I have used nekton with my bearded dragons and geckos and it works great on them. It even brings out there color better.

I have never claimed to be an expert on anything " even though some around here think that my ego could not fit in a barn " but I do have some good and bad experiances over the last 17yrs that I share to help people out when I can. It is only through trial and error and a certain amount of experimentation, that we AS HOBBYIST are able to find what works to benefit and what causes the demise of our beloved Reptiles. I understand Joey's perception on; " It should be done by a Vet or someone in the Medical field, " BUT BUT how many in the Medical field are holding the " torch " to do any REAL REASEARCH? You can count them on less than one hand and most of them do not have proper funding.WE all, do not have the privaledge of living next door to Douglas E. Mader D.V.M. Most of our local Vets are quick to tell you that they will take in Reptiles to see and treat and will GLADLY take your money, BUT wether you guys like it or not or wether you guys think I am an ass or not, most of them do not know " scat from shinola " on how to properly treat Reptiles.The best info out there on how to treat alot of illnesses and how to keep Reptiles alive and healthy and also how to kill the poor things; " comes from Hobbyist that really take the time to oserve their animals and take notes. " So, when it comes to Vitamins; " I have used them for 10yrs now and have seen nothing but benefit from them in the dosages and the brand that I use. " What are those benefits? Well, " They have a bright irredescent sheen to them at all times and they are more active and not just flopped in the corner of the cage most of the time and they have very strong muscle tone and their appetite is more aggressive even though I do not powerfeed and here is a weird one, their defecation and urates are much more fresh smelling, wich my Acidophilus plays a part in that also. " So, is all of this " just in my imagination? " It very well could be guys, but I feel strong about it and it works for me. This, like alot of things is " personnal preference. " I am not a Vet, but would I reccommend a occasional supplement based on my own experiance?......YES.......Johnson Herp

I think you are a pioneer in this, and that is what we need. Great work, and I may even try some of the sea silver. But crushing centrum does sound like it would be benificial in small doses. Thanks Andy

It's pretty sad to see people talking about testing vitamins and minerals on your pets without conducting real test other than "observations". Just because a human can consume a product without a negative affect does not mean your animal will have the same results. I'm not trying to be a jerk but how many boas in the wild consume Centrum? And have any of the previous people here actually properly observed a boa throughout its entire life? I'm not only talking about observing a boa for a couple years but its entire life? How can you make any type of diagnosis? Is the purpose to create a "super boa"? I don't understand. Is feeding it quality rodents not good enough? Too many people on here say they are in the hobby because they love the animals they work with yet make moves I don't understand. I would not give my son some type of medicine that has never been proven on humans yet worked on gorillas. Are rodents from a breeder like RodentPro not good enough; if so then I am a complete fool for feeding my boa food that lacks the NATURAL vitamins and minerals that they need to live a normal life. I may be a rookie when it comes to this hobby but it doesn’t take a 20 year veteran hobbyist to realize that you should not try something on your animal unless there have been clinical studies to determine the long term affects of any substance used. Feeding an animal a small dose does not make it right. Any creature can consume the deadliest poisons if the dose is small enough. I don’t think you mean your boas any harm but LETS BE REALISTIC, YOU ARE FEEDING YOUR BOA A PRODUCT THAT HAS NOT GONE THROUGH APPROPRIATE TESTING TO SEE IF IT HAS A TERMINAL EFFECT ON THAT SPECIFIC SPECIES.

I might just start taking PCP because it puts elephants to sleep, maybe I’ll be able to start sleeping well again.

I'm not going to get into the debate about whether or not you should give supplements to your snakes, but one thing you might not have thought about is, in the wild boas eat a variety of foods(different vitamins and minerals and fat content). And those prey items consume a variety of foods(again a variety of vitamins and minerals). So by feeding our snakes the same rats, raised on the some rat chow, year after year they could very well be missing some thing they need. I think the RIGHT supplement might not be a bad idea. What that is is still unknown. But people willing to try different things with some of their collections is how we might learn what will benifit and what won't.

Kathy

Everyone should have some knowlege of the comon use of Vitamins, so your statements are basically useless. I take great pride in taking care of my boas, and the quality of feed that I give them also is of great concern. You say boas in the wild do just fine eating what they eat, or do they?? I have a dog also, and I do not just buy old red dog chow because it's "dog food", I buy a premium dog food because it was designed for my dogs best health.
Don't get me wrong here, one thing you will never find me doing is giving human qualities to an animal, I am very much against animals being on the same level as humans...animal activists are taboo in my book, but I do feel we have a God given command to do our very best at whatever we do. Animal husbandry is our responsibility, if you have animals that you are responsible for.

I do not feel you should own any animal that you do not try to provide the best possible care for. That is called animal husbandry.

Andy Federico

I guess your comment struck me the wrong way and after I read it again, I realized I was a little too harsh.
Let me explain something...

Vitamins are different than minerals, testing has been done enough to prove that excess vitamins wash through any body system and only the needed vitamins at the time of consumption are used.

Minerals, have been found to be needed also, but have also been known to build up within certain organs in a body system. The silver that was talked about previously is a certain type of ABSORBABLE silver and therefore presents no problems in our systems.

It has been proven that Bearded dragons, and iguanas and countless other animals including fish benifit from the use of vitamins.

I just thought I should share more on this, and appologise for being overly harsh. Andy Federico

Don’t worry Andy, I was not offended by your comments but I do have some feedback on what you said. You said “You say boas in the wild do just fine eating what they eat, or do they??” I don’t see boas becoming extinct, or do we?? If you take great pride in taking care of your boas then why would you risk giving them something that could potentially be dangerous? I mean you have no proof what-so-ever on what affect these vitamins can do to your animal now or in the long run. No one has yet to step up to the plate and stated that they have given a boa vitamins for 20 years with no side affect. Can you explain to me your theory on how the boa’s system will absorb ingredients in a form the animal is not use to getting? It almost like a person taking creatine for body building…… most people don’t realize that the body will absorb very little and not at all in some people unless they take additional supplement. In the long run these "supplements" cause problem with the stomach and teaches the body to produce less. In the end you end up not being able to produce any natural creatine. Now, you pretty much supported what I said by giving that “I own a dog speech”. You stated that you don’t give your dog old red chow but give it premium dog food. I’m sure you give it food that HAS been CREATED AND TESTED SPECIALLY FOR DOGS. I doubt you give your dog cat food or human food. Again, if you lost focus, this conversation is not about giving your animal the best diet, it’s about giving your animal food that has been created in the best interest of it. And I agree with you when you said that you should not own an animal if you can’t provide the best possible care for; that is why I use prey that has been fed a scientifically designed and nutritionally complete diet giving the consumer/boa a nutritional meal.

Now Kathy, trying new or unproven things with your animal seems kind of ignorant. Yes, learning what works is a plus but learning what doesn’t work may mean the life of your animal. Good luck with your projects. I’m only using what I know works.

I just don’t see why properly fed rodents are not good enough and no I’m not talking about rodents fed their entire life on monkey chow. Can anyone tell me about a boa dying or growing poorly due to quality rodents? The bottom line is that people feed their animals things that they don’t know might result in problems that may or may not visible, things that a boas stomach may be unable to process or digest or maybe even kill their animals and that just seems careless to me. Feeding an animal something where YOU DON’T KNOW THE END RESULT IS NOT HUSBANDRY.

Not all vitamins and minerals get flushed out of the system..... only some. A person can actually overdose on vitamins and minerals. Just a little something for you to think about before you make a statement that has not been completely researched. I'm not a doctor but am an instructor in advanced first aid and my wife is a nurse.

I am going to have to agree with your way of thinking. Properly fed rats should do it. If a Boa is recovering from some trauma or treatment depleting the vitamins, then maybe they should be given some supplemental vitamins. Though, I would really rather see some scientific research because I know I don't want to use my Boas as Guinea Pigs.

I understand that the phisiology of a reptile is NOTHING like that of a human but try to follow along with this analogy. By and large most boas survive their entire adult lives on a diet of rats. Good source of protein and fat something I think we are all in agreement on. Say that there is a human that REALLY likes the taste of McDonald's cheeseburgers and will eat ONLY that. Will this individual survive....yes! Could this individual eventually reproduce.....yes! is it possible that this individual might appear outwardly normal.....yes! Will this person live a "normal" healthy life....I think we all know the answer to that one too!

Are supplements the answer to a healthier life for a boa...until there is a true scientific study done all we have is anecdotal evidence and the real truth remains to be discovered. For the most part anyone who has kept boas for longer than a year or two genuinely cares about their long term well being and tries to provide optimun conditions....whatever they perceive that to be!

Denny Rimes

As we are all interested in seeing our snakes have a good, long life, perhaps some of you can help me with a problem I had some years ago.

I borrowed an 8 foot, wild caught-as-an-adult male boa for an attempted breeding. When I got him home, he squirmed through my hands and a strip of skin an inch wide and 8-12 inches long peeled back showing the muscle underneath. I pulled the skin back into place, and he healed up before I had to return him six months later. Unfortunately he died less than a year after he went back to the owner. The carcass was discarded without any attempt to determine the cause of death, as far as I know.

I had never seen that problem before and only once since then, in a reticulated python.

I have never gotten a good answer for the cause of that weak skin problem. Have any of you seen anything like it, and if so, what is the cause?

One of the possible explanations that I have thought of was a stress-caused vitamin C deficiency, which could make it relevant to this discussion.

Paul Hollander

Here is a copy of a tip from a rather short-lived magazine from some years ago. The outfit folded in a year or so, but they printed some good stuff while they existed.

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Tips

To inprove the condition of captive snakes try using Solovite vitamin-minereal tablets. Sluggish appetites have been improved with routine use of this supplement.

Dosage: Not to be used in animals of two (2) lbs. or less.

1 tablet / 40 pounds once every two (2) weeks.

For animals of lesser or greater weight, regulate the time rather than the dosage.

ex. A 10 pound snake would get one (1) tablet every eight weeks.

This product is available at health food stores or from Solgar Co., Inc., Lynbrook, N.Y. 11563.

- Natl. Assoc. for Sound Wildlife Progs. Newsl. 1(2): 7. (Oct-Nov 1977)

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This tip was printed without the contributor's name. I think I met the man about that time, though I can't remember his name either. Anyway, this guy made the same suggestion and added that the vitamin pill should be made of lecithin and kelp instead of having a sugar coating. He didn't think the snakes digested the sugar coating well.

I tried his suggestion, and it seemed to work. Or at least didn't hurt. However, I couldn't find the Solovite brand at the local health food store. I used a Solotron brand, that seemed to be about the same thing. Both had vitamin D3, 10,000 I.U. of vitamin A, and a long list of other ingredients that were in almost microscopic type (to fit on the label). Probably the brand isn't particularly important as long as the ingredients are about the same.

I generally fed the pills with a dead rat. Easiest way is to pry the rat's mouth open a bit and put the pill in crossways behind the incisors. (It always made me think of a cartoon dog with a bone in his teeth.) Then feed the rat to the snake.

My understanding is that the fat soluable vitamins are the ones most likely to be toxic. Vitamins A, D, E, and maybe some others. A seems to be the most concentrated in these preparations.

If you check the tip, it says not recommended for snakes under 2 pounds. It takes a big king to weigh over 2 pounds. So I tried a liquid vitamin and finally settled on Avitron, from Lambert-Kaye, a liquid multiple vitamin available for birds in the local pet store. I went to it partly because in contains vitamin D3, and reptiles apparantly use D3 instead of D2. Mammals can apparantly use either D2 or D3 interchangably. When it says D on human vitamins, it is likely to be D2.
Dosage: In the tip, the vitamin A dosage would be 10,000 IU (international units) per 40 pounds of python every 2 weeks. That works out to 250 IU per pound. Unfortunately Avitron was phased out, and I need to hit the pet store to see what bird liquid vitamin to use instead.

I feel that extra vitamins/minerals for snakes are most important for fast growing babies and breeders.

Disclaimer: Not responsible for any ill effects or disappointments resulting from the administration of diet suppliments to herps.

Paul Hollander

you must be a lawyer or in law school or watch a sh!% load of Court T.V.

I dont feed my animals vitamins every time or anything but if you look at poison dart frogs as an example, you will find that these frogs lose thier toxicity in captivity. This is attributed to something in the diet they recieve in the wild but not in captivity. No matter how hard we try we cant duplicate mother nature, not with all the technology in the world. So I feed a liquid vitamin (REPTILE VITAMIN) to give my snakes a little boost and hopefully replace what they could have lost. And just as a side note Im guessing that the vitemins formulated for reptiles were designed unfortunatly at the exspense of reptiles so to say it is not husbandry I think is somewhat closed minded.

Again, people have to post something they don't know. Animal husbandry is the agricultural practice of breeding and raising livestock. Please know what the word is before you give your opinion. Husbandry does not include trying unproven substances as part of an animal’s diet. Please pay attention, the poison dart frog thing proves nothing because you still feed the frog foods that are part of their natural diet. It's not like you change its diet to a man made food. I don't know what your point is? Again(actually 3rd time), this is not about the natural food an animal eats but about un-proven substances and the potential harm you may inflict on your animal if administered. Opinions are a dime-a-dozen, everybody seems to think they are experts but where are the people with real, adequately tested and documented results.

The vitamins currently used today for reptiles were created by testing not through husbandry. Please know the difference before you call someone closed minded. Closed minded is the person that speaks without knowing what he is talking about. I don't think people are thinking husbandry while they are testing drugs, vitamins, antibiotics and medicines on lab animals.

there is no comparison of insect eaters and mammal eaters. It is well known that insects are an incomplete diet in captivity and supplementation is needed. A lab rat and a brazilian wild rat both have the same chemical composition.

ps, an above post mentioned supplementing vitamins once or twice a year. If supplementation did have a necessary affect, then this would be negligeable. It's like feeding once or twice a year. If you choose to supplement, and are seeking whatever benefits there may be, then go regularly.

To add supplements or not, is that the question? While opinions may differ, if healthy, complete mammals are offered as prey then none are necessary. A variety is contained withen the animal, so if the same rats fed on the same food (that is vit/mineral enriched), and are happy and biologically complete then there is little need to worry about your snakes nutrition. Many, many studies have been done on rodent nutrition.

As far as testing products on reptiles; yes, it is necessary to get data on what does and doesn't work, but who should be doing this, the hobbyist? To be beneficial minimally, health exams and blood chemestry's should be done on a regular basis for the snake's (hundreds of snakes) entire life span. You may be heading in the right direction (again opinions may differ), or you could be losing 5 years off your snakes life, without knowing why it died in the end. A 25year lifespan is still good, but how do you know it couldn't have lived 30? The answer is methodical testing of such products.

You are right that economics limiting testing on reptiles, and studies in reptile medicine. This may result in people trying new things as you have, but it is presumptive to say that there is no Reptile Medicine.

As far as what to do, well, the laws say that as long as you're not causing undue hardship for your animals (don't supplement arsenic..lol ) then you can do whatever you please with them. All I, or anyone can do is offer there opinion, mine of which may be clear from the bias in this post. I prefer to go with what has been studied, and shown to work, as opposed to experimenting some unknown tangent where it probably isn't necessary.