Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If a bearded has coccidia, is not going to the bathroom a symptom? One of my four beardeds in my class was tested several months ago with coccidia. My vet said to use panacur ( a lot of people disagreed) and he said she was fine. Well, three aren't really going to the bathroom and the only thing that works is a long bath. I am also contacting a new vet.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Brian

Hi
i would try some good bacterias .
also called probiotics you can buy them in capsules in human healthstores.
put a capsule of achidophulus in 1/2 glas of water and then give it to youre beardie.
it is posibal the panacure killed the good bacterias.
and you need to replace them.
i also sugest www.parazap.com.
after i using that i not have problems with parasietes.
btw it meanly for worms ,but i know it also kill flagelates .
byeeee

1)Coccidiosis and constipation do NOT go together!
2)Panacur will NOT treat animals w/ coccidiosis. It is only approved for roundworms.

Keep giving them baths to let them get the stool out of their systems. Try hydrating them a little more, may help with some of the constipation. Agreed on the other post - coccidia and constipation do not go together, and panacur does not help with coccidia at all. If the dragon is eating fine, defecating fine, and acting fine and they find a little coccidia in his/her stool, I wouldnt treat them. Dragons have a little amount in their fecal matter naturally, and it can only hurt them if you treat when nothing is really wrong.

David
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David and Kevin

KDRKreatures.com
Exotic Reptile Breeders - Specializing in Bearded Dragons

Email

Some good posts above

Treating parasites in healthy animals is debatable. Since in this case, it is coccidia that we're talking about, I would suggest against treatment of all the animals are doing fine. This parasite is impossible to get rid of 100% and control is what is desired. The best method of control is keeping the herp happy and healthy.

In regards to the constipation, re-evaluate the husbandry and diet of these guys. Do they have proper temps and humidity? While desert critters, they should still have water bowls available and a humid hidespot.

In regards to a veterinarian, there is nothing wrong in seeking a second opinion. While Panacur isn't really the drug of choice for coccidia, it should also be noted that many drugs are used off-label. Especially with reptiles, no drugs are made specifically for these animals.

www.arav.com and herpvetconnection are great ways to look for herp vets, in addition to calling around and asking for referrals.

as the last post stated, check the husbandry of your beardies... i battled coccidia recently and none of them were constipated. could they be blocked with substrate? or a food item that maybe you just started feeding?? also, a good herp vet is hard to come by, so i wouldnt burn any bridges at the vet you have now, if u desire a second opinion, go for it, but dont tell your current vet what a moron he is or anything like that, ya know??
and as previously stated, coccidia is a natural parasite that is in ALL beardies, when the levels get too high is when you have a problem, stress, husbandry, cleanliness of tanks, can all contribute to rising levels of it. so yeah, check your husbandry issues before you start giving medicine that might not be needed!!
GOOD LUCK!!

First off, I have dealt with coccidia in numerous dragons over the years. And I've used many different treatments, and several vets.

1. It **IS** possible to have coccidia free dragons!! And they are perfectly happy and healthy. I had my last male free of it for 4 years. I bought a hatchling female dragon who NEVER had it and still doesn't!! Getting coccidia-free dragons require exceptional cleanliness, and thorough treatment to clear it out. Once it's gone, the only way they get it is to be exposed to it again; either from the ground outside, or from another reptile who has it. Most dragons have it because it takes a lot of time, labor, and a good amount of money to get rid of it, and the breeder or owner can't or won't invest what's needed to do it.

2. Panacure will not work on coccidia, it's for worms. The two most common drugs for treating coccidia (and they ARE rated for treating it!!) are Albon, and T.M.S. solution. Both are commonly used in mammals for treating the problem (usually in kittens and puppies). In reptiles, T.M.S. works much better then Albon and takes a lot LESS time.

3. Normally, a coccidia infection is accompanied by loss of appetite (when very bad), and loose or diarrhea stools that stink. However, it is possible for them to accompany constipation when there are *multiple* problems with the dragons. More then likely, your dragons have multiple problems.

4. Probiotic treatments, like acidopholis, will *not* get rid of coccidia. It's not predatory and it won't out compete coccidia (which are not bacteria). However, coccidia treatments can kill off good bacteria, which means they need to be replaced. The *easiest* way is to get some plain yogurt, that says "active cultures", and use a syringe and squirt some in their mouth (some dragons will eat it on their own). And do that for 3-7 days. The yogurt has other natural beneficial bacteria besides acidopholis.

As to your dragon problem, they are **VERY** sick, constipation is an exceptionally serious problem in dragons. If they are housed together and one tests positive for coccidia (or anything else infectious), they all have it and all of them will have to be treated. Clearing one dragon of the infection, while the rest of the cage mates have it, is pointless and expensive as the newly healthy one is automatically reinfected.

Keep up the warm water baths!! Constipation can kill or paralyze. Make sure they have plenty of clean water. Look for another vet, besides the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Vets website, given in another reply, also try calling your local zoo (might take some phone work to get someone in the animal care department) and ask who they take their reptiles to. Be prepared to drive a good ways away to find another reptile vet.

Strip down the cage, remove all their bedding and toys. Anything wood will have to be tossed as wood is impossible to totally disinfect. If they are in wood cages...you're going to have a hell of a time cleaning them. Anything glass or plastic should be washed in 15% bleach and soaked in said bleach for 30 min, then rinsed really well. Use newspaper or paper towel for the cage floor.

Besides being the start for clearing up any kind of internal sickness, stripping the cage will also allow you to monitor what they are eating, when they drink (if they drink), and when they poo. As soon as you see a pile of dragon feces, remove it and the paper liner. Coccidia cysts in the feces don't become active for about 12-24 hours (temperature dependent). The cysts in the feces are how they re-contaminate themselves. As an added precaution, clean down the bottom of the cage with 15% bleach, and let it sit for 30 min. That will kill any cysts that may be there. Then rinse the cage bottom really well with water.

If the dragon smears themselves with feces, you will have to wash them in warm water. Make sure to rinse them in flowing water (under the tap) after the scrubbing bath, to remove any little pieces that might be sticking on.

The above listed cleaning procedures will take care of every kind of fecal transmitted infection that is no longer inside the dragon: bacteria, worms, and protozoans like coccidia.

As said farther above, coccidia normally doesn't go with constipation. Your dragons are very sick and it is probably several problems combining. Coccidia are likely just one of those problems. You have a lot of work ahead of you to get them healthy, and it's going to take months. Reptiles' systems are slower then mammals, it will take longer to clear out infections. Hence, it also takes longer for them to show serious sicknesses.

Best of luck,
Siri

Just a note on probiotics, but there use is a good idea in theory, but is over-rated.

In addition to poor products (a whole different issue, but there is little, to no regulations on what is in these), the bacteria then has to get by the stomach acids and the vigors of digestion. If lucky enough to get past the stomach, the bacteria still needs to work it's way down the looong small intestine, then into the large intestine where it still needs to compete with resident bacteria and find it's little niche to colonize.
If used, probiotics may be effective if given three to four times daily, but any benefits end pretty much as soon as you stop.

For a post in greater detail, look in herp health and breeding, titled, probiotics around the beginning of March or end of Feb.

i thought my Beardie had coccidia from readings back about 1 year ago, turns out she had pinworm GI infection instead. Pinworms are much easier to treat than coccidia overinfection and for pinworms you normally give Pancur daily x 5-7 days, then wait a few weeks and do it again. For coccidia, most vets treat with Albon i believe, but coccidia is very difficult to eradicate-you really just control their #'s in the GI tract. Pay alot of attention to removing fecal matter as soon as you see any in the cage. dont let crickets eat the feces (which they do at night when beardie is asleep) by not allowing crickets to escape in cage at feeding. you may have to remove all cage furniture or feed dragon in separate plastic tub to prevent escaped crickets. with either infection, you normally have a dragon that is eating well, initially, but not gaining or even losing weight and runny, mucous covered stools that stink even more than usual. it can progress to a weak,debilitated dragon if conditions aren't changed or sometimes medications needed. a clean cage, appropriate temperatures, no loose crickets eating their poop usually will give you a healthy dragon w/o problems. good luck. never seen constipation with this to make a short answer long!