Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well things are not looking to good here. First let me tell you that I have been able to keep the eggs at a steady range of 75-78 f, and at around 77-81% humidity. I checked in on the eggs yesterday and a few of them were caving in underneath where they were buried in the vermiculite, ontop they were firm and round. I would leave the top off the incubator and within a few minutes they would become round all the way around and firm again... Today I left my place to go house sit for a week for some friends...I took them with me to keep an eye on them. I brought them into the house and put them in a closet I left the top ajar and when I came back to check on them the humidity was down to 53% and the eggs were dimpled again on the underneath not ontop...Whats going on? Is it the humidity, are they no good...what do you guys think? Last tme they reformed this time it seems they are not snapping back into shape. I was thinking the moisture of the vermiculite is the reason, otherwise they would dimple on the top. The color is good still, not mold or anything just the shape and softness on the bottom.

It sounds like humidity is the issue. The measure I use is if when I squeeze the vermiculite, that just a few drops of water come out.

You may want to try the "no substrate" method where the eggs are maintained over water on a plastic grid. Somebody has to have a picture of that.... anyone?

Doug T

>>Well things are not looking to good here. First let me tell you that I have been able to keep the eggs at a steady range of 75-78 f, and at around 77-81% humidity. I checked in on the eggs yesterday and a few of them were caving in underneath where they were buried in the vermiculite, ontop they were firm and round. I would leave the top off the incubator and within a few minutes they would become round all the way around and firm again... Today I left my place to go house sit for a week for some friends...I took them with me to keep an eye on them. I brought them into the house and put them in a closet I left the top ajar and when I came back to check on them the humidity was down to 53% and the eggs were dimpled again on the underneath not ontop...Whats going on? Is it the humidity, are they no good...what do you guys think? Last tme they reformed this time it seems they are not snapping back into shape. I was thinking the moisture of the vermiculite is the reason, otherwise they would dimple on the top. The color is good still, not mold or anything just the shape and softness on the bottom.

I thought someone might say that...And the thing is my vermiculite is is quite dry. I suspect that the hovabator due to it's design might be part of the problem, the is not alot of places for air to get in. There is a metal grate and a water basin underneath but I would think if i went that route I would end up with the same results. How low can the humidity be? I thought about just putting them on some crumpled up paper towel with no water... Hmmm Maybe i should put some holes in the hovabator?

Zach,

I keep my eggs in as close to 100 percent humidity as possible. They may be collapsing due to dehydration, if the vermiculite they are in is dry. Did you add water to the vermiculite before you put the eggs on it? I use a 1:1 weight ratio of water to vermiculite (add the water slowly while mixing the vermiculite really well).

If you didn't use moist vermiculite, you should switch the eggs to the right moisture content vermiculite right away. If they are alive, they will slowly reabsorb water. The atmosphere around them should also be close to 100 percent humidity. If there is a vent on the incubator, I would close it, and provide air only when the incubator is opened or closed. The eggs need less air than you would think. Opening the incubator for 5 seconds once per week in the first month of incubation, and once per day in the last month of incubation, is enough to provide the needed air exchange.

The eggs' surfaces taughten in dry air. So, the eggs regain their normal shape when you open the incubator and the air drys out. Since they collapse when you return them to the incubator, they are either dead or dehydrated, and there is only one safe way to find out, that is, get them into a more humid environment, and continue their incubation, assuming they may be alive. If they slowly get their full shape back, they are likely to be alive. Unless you are sure they are dead, don't throw any eggs away.

Eggs also collapse when they die. If they weren't alive to begin with (slugs), they wrinkle, yellow, and then get moldy. Those looked like alive eggs when they were laid. Even if they don't regain perfect shape, unless they mold, you should assume that they may still be alive.

Good luck, Robert Bruce.

That the eggs were infertile to begin with.

I do not keep mine anywhere NEAR 100% humidity and I they don't need humidity that high.

I think the incubator is overkill though.
I shoebox with some very slightly dampened cloths is what I use.

If any of the eggs are certainly "dead", open one up and see if there is anything inside other than white substance...

I have had more problems with indigo eggs if the the substrate is too damp than too dry.

High humidity and a lack of proper air movement throughtout the incubator seem to have been the two factors that heavily influenced any successfull outcome for the eggs that have been produced by my colony of Couperi.

I have used humidity levels in the 60-65 percent range with good results. The higher the humidity level, the more problems I seem to have incurred.I have never kept mine at anywhere near.

The eggs could be infertile, but only time will tell. Dont be premature in chucking them out however, I have seen really rotten looking and even discolored eggs produce perfect Eastern Indigo hatchlings.And perfect, sperical, white egs turn out to be cheese blintes inside(And I used to LIKE cheese blintzes back then!)

I think that your doing a good job of staying on top of them. I wouldnt move them anymore than I had to during the rest of this incubation period. Just a heads up.

*Fingers crossed*

Fred Albury

Thanks for everyones input. Last night I increased the humidity to around 90% according to the hygrometer. This morning the eggs were more dimpled and more plyable. So this morning I took the the moisture out of the box and put them in paper towel in the hovabator. The color is still perfectly white. Lets see what happens to them today. The reason I use the hovabator is because the temp fluctuate too much where I live and I am unable to maintain a room at steady temp. I wonder if anyone here has used the standard model hovabator and been successful. I am thinking it will work but what do I know. In my mind I was thinking that they were dimpling on the underneath because they were sitting in the moist vermiculite. The top sided were not sitting in vermiculite obviously and so because the tops didnt dent I figured it was the moisture they were in. MAYBE they are all bad eggs and if they were good it wouldnt matter too much what the humidity was... Seems like different people have had luch w/ different conditions. The question we have to ask is what is the temp and humidity in a gopher tortoise hole this time of year, don't you think that would nip it in the bud? I bet theres an article somewhere on the net with that specific info. I have a bad feeling about my eggs but I definately wont give up.

That GT burrows are where they are normally laying their eggs.

There have been only a few wild indigo snake clutches found.
There was one in GA in the 80's found in a GT burrow, and also one found in a tree stump.

The burrows are average 15' deep and can be as long as 30', and as deep as 6'. There is a whole range of temp variations depending on depth, location, time of year, time of day..what part of the burrow they are laid...etc.

Also...remember the indigo snake ranges from S GA to the everglades, and tortoises don't even live in the everglades.

There is not a study that's going to give us conclusive answers on ideal conditions for eggs. I think they are are able to handle a pretty good range.

We have found the ideal temps in captivity through trial and error...and 75-78 seems to produce the highest percentage of healthy babies.

As far as humidity...I have found that eggs that too damp tend to "swell". Tumor-like swellings develop that can actually cause the egg to split if they are resting in substrate that is too damp.

I really hope to see how this turns out. From my experience, I have never had an indigo snake egg dimple and get soft if it's fertile.

Humidity levels change in the southeast. I think that fertile eggs are tougher than we give them credit. Many of us have pulled our hair out in the past (right Fred and Doug? lol) trying to rescue dying eggs that were not fertile to begin with.

Many of us have pulled our hair out in the past (right Fred and Doug? lol) trying to rescue dying eggs that were not fertile to begin with.

The hair is officially pulled out.

Doug T

is that im still fairly young and have plenty of hair to pull on..

ACTUALLY. . . . . . .. . . .. . .. . .

I have found that (Jumps on wooden soap box) the best way to lose ones hair. . . .without resorting to chemicals or toxic dies, is to simply....Marry...somebody...that doesnt have an interest in what you consider dear.Or better yets hates it. PETA members def are good material for this.

I hear you doubting Thomases in the crowd, but TRUST me, NOTHING will make your hair voluntarily fall out quicker. Heck you wont even have to yank any of em', theyll fall out EN MASSE'!!!

If you cant take this route, or perhaps allready have resigned yourself to it and accepted it, thereby slowing the demarcation of your hairline because the testosterone levels dropped....then the next best thing is to:

TRY and KEEP Eastern Indigos in cages that dont work well for them, on substrate which is hard to clean.

Example: Adult 7 ft male eastern indigo kept in large plexiglass aquarium with overhead lighting fixture which heats up cage to much, makeing indigo restless and causing it to trace its mucous filled nose back and forth over the same area of PLEXIGLASS, (which scratches oh so easily) Now put this cage in a hot place with LOTS and LOTS of foodttraffic. Dont forget to feed it heavily before you do.

Guaranteed to cause hair loss in record time. NO...I havent done it, but I have seen others that did. Now they are bald and their head is shaped like a cucumber. So the hair loss is a tragic thing.

Enough idle chatter, shut of Fred.

Ok

God Bless

Fred

Dear Dean,

What you think about Indigo eggs is really interesting. I truthfully don't know what the humidity is in the sealed food containers I use for eggs. I assume that it is close to 100 percent because I frequently see condensation on the inner walls of the containers when the temp is lowered from 27 degrees Celsius (80.6 degrees F) to 25 degrees (76 degrees F).

Indigo Snake eggs of mine that are perfectly formed and calcified will not split when incubated on the 1:1 weight ratio of water to vermiculite that I use. They do swell to larger size than their size when laid.

Indigo eggs of mine that have weak spots may crack, split, and leak or break open. The vermiculite mix I use will cause the skin of my hand to feel slightly moist when I take a handful of it and squeeze it tightly, but no liquid water will drip.

Last year I used a drier vermiculite mix, one half part water (by weight) to one part vermiculite. With a month left in the incubation, Several eggs started to dimple on top. I wasn't seeing the condensation on the inside walls of the containers. I assumed the eggs were too dry and were running out of water. I dripped water down the sides of the plastic walls to moisten the vermiculite, and all of the eggs but two regained their original shape, albeit slowly, over the course of two weeks. These all hatched. Of the two that stayed dimpled, one hatched, and the one that was the most dimpled did not hatch. It had a near term, dead Indigo hatchling inside when I cut into it.

In my limited experience, I have never had a dead or infertile egg that did not collapse. Others that I know have seen this happen though (including Fred Albury who posted here).

For the eggs of mine that have weaknesses or not fully calcified areas, I am sure that a lower moisture environment would lessen their swelling and lower their possibility of splitting. Of the eggs of mine that had weak spots and split, all had a live embryo inside. I am working on experiments right now to see if it is the moisture in the substrate or in the atmosphere (or both) that leads to this breakage.

Dean, how do you know that your eggs are not close to 100 percent humidity if they are in closed containers with damp paper towels? I imagine that the containers are not tightly sealed, or have vent holes. Have you tested the humidity inside using a humidity meter?

I have some eggs that aren't seeming to do as well in the mix I use, but they have no imperfections. Their shells seem to get water logged, and are more likely to get mold growing on them. They looked alive to begin with. So far, only one of these has collapsed, and it was infertile. I am experimenting with an antifungal agent on some, and I am probably going to switch them to a drier substrate.

I also have a few eggs which were laid with a bright yellow stain on the outer part of the shell. These have become weak at those sites, and have begun to swell there. I have moved some of these to drier substrate as well.

I am trying to find answers to some of these questions, but I don't have any hard and fast conclusions yet.

Robert Bruce.

The short answer is I'm making an assumption, I don't measure the humidity either. But, I have experimented a lot in the past,I have always used damp cloths for incubation medium.

In the beginning...I used MUCH damper medium. I assume it the eggs were close to 100% humidity, b/c there was always condensation on the inside of the container, and that was what I was shooting for. I dampened the cloths (not wet, just barley damp) but kept a tight seal on the eggs and re-moistened daily to make sure the container was always humid enough that the condensation was on the sides. (not touching the eggs, just on the inside of the container). I did ok this way, but battled A LOT of swelling, tumors...and LONG (like 110 days sometimes) incubation periods (this at 78F)

ONCE I tried damp spagnum (about as damp as you described)
I had a good clutch of 12 eggs on it, and I battled with swelling, and 2 eggs actually developed small splits.

After about 40-45 days I abandoned it and dried them out a lot.
I saved the split eggs which were leaking badly by (believe it or not)wrapping about 90% of the egg in electrical tape.

I put the eggs in the dampened cloths, but this time with more holes in the container. I did not let it EVER get humid enough that condensation formed on the sides. The eggs recovered and hatched. I cut open the "taped" eggs when the rest were pipping, and the babies were perfect.

Since then...I've been using the drier method. I have not had a single "tumor", much less a split. The only eggs that have ever dimpled on me were infertile.

Also...incubation time speeded up to about 85 days! (same temp, 78F)

One other noteworthy comment, when I say 78...that's a mean. I don't sweat it if they get as low as 74-75. But I try not to EVER let it exceed 80F

I don't want to come off as arrgant here.

My notes are simply what has worked for me.
This is by no means an exact science. If other method work for other people, they should all be factored in to the equation.

I try to say things like, "I think" and "what I do" alot but sometimes may forget and may come across as a know it all...and I'm certainly not!

The one thing I do think I've developed is a sort of knack for looking at and touching the eggs and figuring out how to change the conditions to make the eggs respond positively. (assuming they are good, of course.) This of course just from trial and error.

After reading all of that should I assume my eggs are infertile? I have raised and lowered the humidity and either way now they retain the dimples. The hygrometer has gone as high as 88% and down to 55%. The temps have been steady at 77. Let me ask you this, if they are infertile what will happen next...will they start to turn color and smell? Is there anything in addition to the dimpling that would indicate that they are infertile? Thanks...

They should start to discolor (yellowish or even greenish spots)
and will start to smell bad within a few days.

I feel fairly confident that if you have done all that and they are still dimpled, they are infertile, but it doesn't hurt to wait a few more days.