Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my first time using this forum, so if I find a way to mess up, excuse me...

I have a 23" long, 50/50 black/white, cal king.(first snake!) It is a very healthy snake, eats 3-4 pinkies a week, no mites or anything like that.

The problem is, that snake just won't stop biting!!! I hold it wearing gloves, and it never bites the gloves.(any more) But if I attempt to hold it without the gloves it stays very still for a second, smells my hand a couple of times, then strikes!!! I am positive my hand does not smell like pinkies, because he bites even when I havent handled a pinkie for days. Why is it does bite me, and how do I get it to stop???!!
Thank you all,
PLEASE RESPOND

Wash your hands before picking him up. If he bites you don't jerk away just wait until he lets go. He will sone discover that you are too big to eat. Also handle him between feedings so he doesn't associate every time the cage opens equals food.

Thanks for your help. I always do wash my hands before handling it, and I do handle it every day, yet he still bites.

It also seems he has a new trick to get me to leave him alone, since he is biting less... When I picked him up yesterday and today, he got much more squirmy than normal, then pee'd on me! Don't really know which is worse: biting or peeing.. lol Do you know what I can do to stop this new behavior??

THANK YOU

P.S.... Is this what musking is? I was never really too sure what musking was. Thanks again

That is a defense all young snakes use he will probably outgrow it as he gets older. I have a 2 year old mex black that still musks every time I hold her.

hi i am wai~
i have the same situation with billsanostrich, my black king bite me all the time, even something move, she bite!!
last time i change water for her, i put the water bowl back
then she bit the bowl!!

She is much much more crazy than before!!

if you feed your snake by hand he may be associating your hand with feeding time/food. or even if you drop the food in by hand he may be associating your hand with food. i had the same problem so now i place the food in with a long pair of tongs and it helped.

Ca kings are horrible snakes some are okay but lots are bitters and musk on people.
I find Ca kings and honduran milks to be the two worst in the king/milk group.
Once you have had any of the Mex king group you never go back to CA kings.
A "tame" Ca king go back to biting overnight. Any snake can but these snakes are known for it.
Still better than Hondurans which are the worst ever but Ca kings are pretty bad.

I have had a handful of nice predictable Cal. Kings over the years,but MANY do what your talking about. I have tried a lot of tricks to break it with mixed success.It amazes me when people tell me they have had exactly the opposite experience!

I am not a Cal. King fan. Love the pure blk/whte Deserts with no yellow on the bottom edges. I have had some nice looking Coastals too. But the biting/musking thing gets REAL OLD. I personally don't think they look nice enough to deal with that. Life is too too short.And with the same number of mice you use a week why not have something you look forward to being around.
Cheer up though. There are A LOT of other beautiful snakes out there with nice calm trustworthy attitudes that are a pleasure to be around. ( there are always exceptions to the general rule)

Nigritus tend to be VERY mellow. Adult Arizona Mountain kings are one of the most beautiful snakes out there and generally have sweet dispositions and are long lived. My personal favorite is the Black Milks. Adults are Big (by milksnake standards) mellow trustworthy glossy blue/black animals that are cool as all to watch gleam in the light. Some of mine have the gentlest attitude around and they NEVER do that kingsnake psycho thing, but you'd better make sure your hands haven't been around mice when you pick them up. They are VERY aggressive feeders.Other than that they're GGGGreat!!!!!

Good luck. theres a lot of people here that can help you get a good one.

Bob.

I posted that in this board with some reluctancy because its become rather PC board meaning all kings are great and all king types are equal.
Thats not the case at all. CA kings come in amazing patterns like aztec high white spotted albino you name it great looking snakes Great hardy snakes big eaters and other great qualities like not as secretive as other kings but bitters they are more so than other kings and like I said a "tame" Ca king will go back to biting over night.
There are allways exceptions but as a rule thats the type of snakes they are. Little tail "rattlers" that try to scare you to adults that will bite you.

Theres also Trans Pecos ratsnakes and Bairds too. They are VERY GENTLE. Lots of others too..

Ive found that Easterns, Brooksi and Apalachicola Kings are the mellowist. Next you have the Cals the Nigra's and Specks and after that its the Nigrita's and the Spendida for the meanest of the subs in my book. I swear every Splendida Ive owned or have picked up has either tried chewing on my fingers or just craps and strikes like a crazed freak. Ive seen that behavior in all the subs mind you but the three Kings from the East are hands down the calmest of the subs and among the calmest of all Colubrids IMHO.

Keith
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>>Ive found that Easterns, Brooksi and Apalachicola Kings are the mellowist. Next you have the Cals the Nigra's and Specks and after that its the Nigrita's and the Spendida for the meanest of the subs in my book. I swear every Splendida Ive owned or have picked up has either tried chewing on my fingers or just craps and strikes like a crazed freak. Ive seen that behavior in all the subs mind you but the three Kings from the East are hands down the calmest of the subs and among the calmest of all Colubrids IMHO.
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>>Keith
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from central and south Texas all the way to AZ and I can't agree. Most splendida that I have caught (and produced) have been very docile. I have found that young males are a bit nippy and females can tend to musk, but they invariably calm down and become completely docile.

I have a pair of eastern kings that are totally untrustworthy, but in this case it is a feeding response. My female will try and bite/eat anything that comes into her cage and my male will often bite and coil around a snake hook! But they are doing the cal king thing - "try to eat it first, then figure out what it is".

I have found the most untrustworthy kings in general are holbrooki. Most speckled kings I have found have been musking, striking snakes. They don't bite while being handled, but the don't hesitate to defend themselves when encountered.
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Chris Harrison

Maybe its just CB animals lol as thats all Ive ever had or handled as far as Splendida. Im sure experiences are gonna vary widely just the other day someone was telling me that Fox Snakes they have encountered in the wild are always nice and docile yet every single one Ive found has been a hellion lol.

Keith
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Not having owned any eastern forms yet, I'm biased to the "third coast", Texas! My splendidas, my holbrooki, and my nigritas are sweethearts, and my one cal liked to try to swallow my thumb a couple of times but none musk. I think my nigritas win hands down for inquisitiveness with mellow attitudes. My dos pesos,
Todd

While I've had a few nervous hatchlings most have been as you said VERY mellow and inquisitive. I've seen a few posters with really bad natured ones. Really surprising at times, the varied experiences.

I've found the opposite to be true. But I only have around 80 cal kings now and have produced a couple of thousand of them.

Babies can be defensive and express the behavior that you mentioned, but hardly any of my adults do. I've only had one or two adult cal kings that were aggressive, the other couple of hundred that I've had over the years were very mellow.

I've found a couple of hundred in Arizona in the wild and NOT ONE has bit or musked me. Now pyros........everyone that I've caught in the wild (not a lot BTW) have bit me and musked me when caught, but then mellowed out real fast in captivity.

Kerby...

Considering that you have only 80 kings and have produced thousands of babies I can see your no expert lol.
I on the other hand have had 3 kings (one died old age still have the other 2)and havent produced one lol.
Seriously I do stand by my statement not only by my experience but by others also. All 3 of my kings were/are biters might not bite today but doesnt mean wont bite tomorrow.
Your kings are spectacular looking but IMO Ca kings are some grumpy kings. I certainly dont doubt you at all .
I can only say from my experience and a few friends.

as long as we are respectful that others like them and that is their right, more power to them,but we don't need to feel bullied just because we don't see it the same way and our opinion is just as valid. Life is too short to feel like you can't/ aren't entitled to an opinion. Bob

I agree but Kerby is a good breeder his snakes are intruth very nice.
I stand by my statement about Ca kings. To bad he took it as an attack on him. The problem with these boards is that they have clicks that walk "the party line" .
I like Ca kings have two now but certainly would never suggest one as a first king.

You are right, you definitely have your opinion and I have mine.

Kerby...

I've had numerous Cal kings both CB and wildcaught and have had VERY few problems with them biting. I don't recall ever being bitten by a wild caught cal king.........musked almost every time but not bitten. One of my CB males clamped on to a freind of mine last year but that the first time I've had any of my current stock bite someone. As a general rule I've found Cal king to be great pets. I still love my thayeri best though. BTW Kerby this is Chris in NM

Scott and I are going to Kansas in a couple of weeks for a week of herping. When we get back we are planning on heading down to SW New Mexico for a few days in May.

Kerby...

Hey Kerby,

I saw Scott this weekend @ the Albuquerque herp show. He mentioned that you all were headed to Kansas. He also told me about your career change. Are you going to go down around Hillsboro/silver city to look for NM Pyros? Let me know and maybe I can give you some tips. Oh and watch out for those Cal kings you might get bit Ha Ha. Email me

Chris

Before I got into brooks kings, I kept several dozen cal kings. Of about 40 adults, most were raised by me from hatchlings. Only a handful were ever calm to the point of trusting them to crawl about around my hands or arms. Most, in my opinion, are not to be trusted as far as biting goes. Not only the biting, but the musking is what made me sell off my cal king collection......and I was producing reverse stripers 13 years ago.

I recently bought a pair of HY albino bananas and they are just as bad. They are proven adults, and proven biter/muskers. Of the 30-40(lost count) brooks kings I have, only a couple are biters, and that's just getting them out of the cage. Once they are out, they'll kittens.

Hondurans are another story. Some are CHEWERS, and others are kittens. Flip of the coin.

Brandon Osborne

Thats been pretty much my experience.

I've had Fla. kings behave like you said, once you get them out they're fine, or occassionaly you get "tasted" but my experience has been that they are less likely to go totaly psycho. As a general rule.

Thats my experience also and the experience of my friends that own CA kings but if you say that on this forum it enrages people.
Ca kings as a whole are horrible tempermeant wise. Two types of Ca king adults "those that will bite you and those that are going to bite you".

I have never understood why for years even since the amel Cal. kings started being available at a reasonable prices to collectors, why they are touted as the perfect first pet king. I appreciate your experience is different than mine and you certainly have a right to like what you like and I mean no disrespect to anyone that likes them. For me and a lot of others they are not THE king. but I have not come to this conclusion for myself without having dealt with numbers of them myself and with many friends in the bussinesses' collections having the same experience. And as the person with the Nigrita can attest there are exceptions to the rules (I have a particularly beautiful even spaced wc Holbrooki from east texas that is the tamest and gentles king around even though they enjoy a rep of being nasty generally as wild caughts) but there are generalities you see very often.

**I have never understood why for years even since the amel Cal. kings started being available at a reasonable prices to collectors, why they are touted as the perfect first pet king.**

I may breed a lot of cal kings, but I do not think they are the perfect first pet. My first love in the 1990's were Rosy Boas. There are a lot of snakes that make excellent first pets. Corns, kings, etc...

**I appreciate your experience is different than mine and you certainly have a right to like what you like and I mean no disrespect to anyone that likes them.**

I agree, and others don't like them. There are too many snakes to like and not enough room to have them.

**For me and a lot of others they are not THE king.**

Everyone has their likes and dislikes, it was the other poster that was making a general statement that cal kings were bad (musking & biting)

Kerby...

all the herps you liked. We have to remember theres more to life than cleaning cages.

Unfortunately this thread has gotten me thinking about a few of the beautiful brown and lemon yellow Cal. kings I've had in the past that weren't monsters. I'm thinking maybe I'll go to one of the Pottstown or Hamburg shows and grab a bunch of good lookers from different vendors for old times sake and see if I can come up with some good ones. (I have a bunch of frozen pinks in the freezer I need to use up, This years Gaigeae went pretty quickly to fuzzys)

Besides....It looks like I've come across some folks I can send the one sthat don't work out to......LOL

What a silly hobby this is

I agree CA kings are sadly sold as great first kings. Great looking esp the high whites but certainly not great first snakes.
If anything it might turn a person off to snakes. Much better choices out there than Ca kings tempermeant wise as far as kings go.

n/p

I don't really look at Cal. Kings any worse then a lot of other snakes. They're all individuals. I've held many Cals that were as tame as a kitten. And a few once in a while that would musk, bite, latch on and constrict. The worst getula king I ever had was a splendida. It took me 7 months to somewhat calm him down. He would bite, chew, chew some more, musk, be calm in the hand, then go psyco again.
Speckled kings are supposed to have a bad rep, but mine has never bit. She musked me the first two times I ever held her, and since then, is a pleasure to hold. She's a bit more skiddish then some of my other kings, but nothing out of the norm for a hatchling. Since I never see Holbrooki much at shows, I don't get the chance to hold many to see if they have a deserved bad rep or not.
Now when it comes to Honduran Milksnakes, I've been bit and musked so many times by those guys, I just expect it when I go to grab one of them. This is an interesting topic on cal. kings and other getula, and what ever ones experience with them is. Just my .02 cents worth.

Steve

Spoken to you on other sites. I respect your opinion. I love the beautiful pure black and perfectly white desert Cal. without yellowing at the base. probably always will but I don't ever want to raise another just to have it turn into a psycho suddenly. It has happened on many occasions. There are too many other cool snakes out there with decent, even gentle attitudes that are fun to work with. I have at times purposely kept some animals BECAUSE I liked their spirited attitudes.No more Cal.Kings for me. My experience has been that they are far more likely to go psycho than other common kings. I did have a sort of dwarfed female E. Chain king that did that for years(crazy mary)Even if you dropped her she would chase after you like she thought she could take you. I often wondered if maybe she couldn't see well or something.She was the only Eastern that acted that way. Take care

The poster wanted to know how they can fix there problem. Now i just read through all the testrasarome ( spelling lol )but i vaguely remember 23 inch snake eating pinkys. Try feeding him or her a bigger meal , mayby the snake is just hungry and whats to eat your finger. Use gloves for the next 3 months and when you have the snakes out keep it out for an hour let it bite and musk , don't get mad just let it know its safe and secure. Also keep it away from your face the only place it can really hurt you is the eye. Also snakes bite mayby not today or tommorow but some day they will bite , i just got bit today but its a snall young snake and its feeding day and i removed her to remove some shed and her water bowl. Plus i had just messed with frozen mice and rats. First time this snake bit but it was my fault , it bit and consticted my finger i thought it was funny. Theres some asvice and something to laugh at hope it helps Paul

I think the point is that some snakes are just prone to being obnoxiuos captives more so than others and sometimes there is not much you can do about it.Also, that while there are general rules there are exceptions.

If you love Cal. Kings, Fine have fun with them. I think one of the points here is that as long as your respectful of others experiences You should feel free to voice your own opinion based on your experience and not be bullied because some folks feel threatened some how.

I envy anyone who has a beautiful desert(true black/ white with no yellowing on the lower scales or black flecks in the white) with an equally beautiful attitude or a beautiul Coastal. You own a living jewel. But no matter your experience or numbers you own you shouldn't think you can bully others because your different experience is the only valid one and dismiss contrary experience.
Like I said before,Beautiful animals at times but I have found them generally not worth putting up with because of their behaviuor.If they float your boat, have a blast.
Bob.

I read all the posts and it started out with help then it went to this type sucks this is better and so on. Not sure if your post was to flame me or not ( i took it neautral btw). My idea of a good starter snake is what a person is looking for. What is the perfect starter snake? Is there one snake that fits all? I'm not trying to pick a fight or argue with you but to actually offer someone a beginner snake you have to know what they want in a snake size wize , looks and if the person wants to work with it. How often will they handle it or will it be a display. How active do they want it and so on. In my opinion what a begginer snake might be for one person might not work for another is the point i'm saying. Paul

I think most of the posts were meant to be an interesting exchange of observations of our collective experiences during our time in the hobby, some challenging long held beliefs by some about the desirability of some subs and the freedom to express them.
I got the impression that some of us were trying to share the thought that the original poster was possibly not going to be able to change the nature of his problem animal and possibly might want to get another sub because of our negative experiences with what some feel is a perfect animal.

So to that end I don't think we strayed very far from the reason for the original post.I also hope we were conveying that you are cetainly free to like Cal. kings as much as you like, they are cool animals, but not to take for granted everyone buys into the thinking that they are ideal captives. I personaly have a low threshhold at times for some peoples condescending opinions that don't allow for any valid veiws but theirs. I think we should all think for ourselves and challenge company lines, being a Lemming is not desirable.

I apologize if I came across as disrespectful. It was not my intention.Enjoy your animals.

Bob.

Thats cool but my point was not all cal kings are like that. No sub of any snake have a perfect tameness record. To me it looked like some one had a problem and instead of trying to help it turned into a cal king bashing session. Now i'm not a big poster but when i see a question that i could answer without offending anyone i'll answer. Alot of posts could have been reworded like if you can't get the cali to calm down i have had alot of luck with this type of king and i haven't had much success with the calis but this person has so you might want to talk to him or her about it and see what they say. I don't have a problem with anyone here i just want to keep the peace , after all were all reptile people we just need to get along and support each other even if they like a different sub than we do. My personal favorites are boas i've some so tame i take to daycares to talk to young kids about them and let them touch a snake for there very first time. I respect all kinds of snakes , theres none i hate or would talk bad about. Everyone has different tastes on their favorites and ones they won't own , me personaly i won't own hots cause i have 3 kids with a 4th on the way i don't want to chance an accident but i have freinds that just keep hots. If what your trying to say is a cali isn't a perfect begginer snake for everyone your right , some people would get bored with them and others would think its too much. Actually i had a corn that use to chew on my knucke and i thought it was funny as hell. I think we need to all just lighten up here a little and support each other sorry this turned out long i didn't intend on that but we need to keep the peace here. Paul

But I don't think people were getting real ugly or anything. I think most of it was interesting and odd that herpers experiences can be so varied. There might have been the occasional whiff of a little codescension but we are humans, not perfect and I have seen ugly obnoxious threads and I don't think this was one.

It seemed to me that most folks were not trashing Cal.kings ruthlessly, just asereting their observations to be valid despite the generally percieved norms. I'll say it again.
I envy those with beautiful perfect Deserts and coastals with equally beautiful attitudes, they are living jewels. I have just found the unprovoked chewing/biting and musking to be very common as have others. It's not the end of the world. I think we are all fine. Right? It's just a fun hobby we all look forward to after a long day at work.

Last time for the record bro....IF CAL. KINGS FLOAT YOUR BOAT, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. HAVE FUN....

Happy herping.. Bob

Agreed. My splendid/hHolbrooki defended himself both ways but settled very quickly. He even comes up to see what's up and he's only been with me about 3 months and is a full grown male. I think he is a perfect king, but I'll be trying the easterns this year as they are stunning. But again my nigritas are as cool as cucumbers....what a lame saying...they're just cool. I'm gonna try 'em all and get back to you all!!
Todd

I'd like to thank every1 who answered my questions. Thanks for the advice, which I will be sure to follow.

BOIDS-N-MORE(plus any1 else who can help): You said too feed my king bigger food. I too think pinkies for a 23 inch snake is small, but he has trouble getting down the pinkies!! He puts all his energy into getting long, not thick. His diameter must be no bigger than a nickel!! He gets 2 pinkies at a time, twice a week... is this enough???

Ok my king is beautiful, but I am definatly getting a CALMER snake soon. Any reccomendations??(probably a corn/different king or something) What do you think I should get, if I want a snake that is calmer, stays relatively small(capable of living in a 20-30gallon tank) and most importantly not too expensive. If a snake like that exists, it is MINE!

THANKS

P.S.... This would be my 2nd snake, and I've only had my crazy king for 4 months. I guess I should get a snake that is as easy too care for as the Ca king

Nothing beats Mexicana for calm, easy to care for Kingsnakes.
I have never been bitten by or musked on by any of my Mexicana, Alterna or Ruthveni (I think these are Mexicana anyway).
And if you are after variability and COLOR!! these are the best.
They stay a manageable 4 foot maximum and have the greatest disposition of any Lampropeltis.
This is my honest opinion......
Check out the Mexicana forum for some great pics and info.
John Lassiter

Here are some San Luis Potosi Kingsnakes (Mexmex).
Above was a 2003 clutch picture of Thayeri.....
John Lassiter

Jlassiter: Hmmm.... I saw some great pics of yout snakes on the mexicana forum. I will definately consider mexicanas as well as any other recommended snakes. Can 1 adult live happily in a 30 gallon tank. Is 20g pushing it? Is there another site where I can check these guys out? I understand you breed them. You can e-mail me or post if you have/know of a sight.

If you look at the mexicana forum check out the Bodner's site (pikiemikie). Also some of the best Thayeri around come from Tim Gebhart at Vividreptiles.com and Dan Vermilya (no longer has a site, but still breeds Mexicana). There are many others. Just click on the username of the poster and you can email them through Kingsnake.
I am actually all sold out already (mexmex and thayeri)even before they hatch. Next year I am adding many more breeders (Thayeri and Mexmex) of each and adding Greeri (Durango Mt. Kings) and Ruthveni (Queratero Kings).
They are some of the most docile snakes that do not reach an enormous size. And I would like to add......They are very addicting....and no one can have just one....LOL
John Lassiter

Yeah, John's got it goin'ON with the Mexicanas! I seen 'em and I believe him. Durn! All sold out?!?! Oh well, PUT ME DOWN NOW FOR DARK SPLIT BAND MEXMEX!!!!!!
Todd

SORRY Todd......All sold out too......LOL
Seriously....All my Mexicana are reserved this year.
I may have some second clutches though...
John Lassiter

Put me down for the first pair from a possible 2nd clutch...ther it's "set in stone" LOL! Seriously!!!
Todd

np

np

Like I said...."They are addicting..."
If you are looking for COLOR and VARIABILITY w/o morphs or hets....Mexicana are the best....
John Lassiter

Thanks Bob,
They are my favorite. I work with many kingsnakes including, Californiae, Splendida, Holbrooki, Brooksi, Nigritis, Alterna, Ruthveni, Thayeri, Mexicana Mexicana and Greeri.
Next year I hope to add some Goini and Outer Banks kings to the list, but we will see how it goes.
John Lassiter
Here my favorite pic of one of my favorite Thayeri (Nuevo Leon Kingsnakes). She is a 2003 hatch from my Vivid Reptile line. She does not have whole scale of black on her. Even the black she does have is saturated with the ground color......

If you have a digital camera can you take a pic of the snake eating and post it. That way we can get an idea of meal size as too the size of snake. Also when you get another snake wheather its a cali king or any other type , make sure you handle it before you buy it. This way you know what to expect , if its nasty don't buy it if its secure and calm there you go. I personaly have never had a nasty king of any type , but there are people that have so be picky on what you get next. Never be in a hurry to buy either , if your at a show and see one you like watch it and see how it acts. If some one shows interest in what your looking at don't rush let them buy it , theres plaenty more where it came from. Hope this helps Paul

One thing to remember is that all of the things you read on here are just the views of those posting. There are very few profesional herpers on this forum. In otherwords read a few other post of the people you see posting before you take their advice to far. Not saying you are getting bad advice but what is said on here is not indisputable.

Now to your queastions IN MY OPINON most of the kings and milks will do fine in a 20L or 30L. As adults the biggest cage you can deal with and afford is the best for the animal. Some people will advise a rack system but I don't like them. I got into snakes because I love seeing them search around their cage. I would sit in the pet stores and watch the snakes there for hours. Why would I want to put them in a rack with little furnishing and newspaper???? I am going to have to go to racks if my collection gets any bigger but I am going to hate it. I think that the more natural things you put in a cage the better. Branches and leaves and mulch all give your snake something to investigate. Watch for ants and spiders but beyond that you have very little chance of introduceing anything that will harm your snake. Again in my opinion.

As for the kind of snake that is for you to decide. I believe that how you handle a snake has alot to do with if you get bit. I have one snake that will bite everytime I pick him up but that is really 1 out of 100 ( actually 120 I think??). If you get a feel for your snake than you will know. The one snake is by the way a FL King and not one of my Green Tree Pythons or any of my arboreals for that matter which have a far worse rep than the Cali King. I have never kept a Cali but I have held a ton and have never been bit. As a suggestion you can try a sinaloan milk or a Fl King or Eastern King and of course a corn. Out of all of them I have never heard of a Sinaloan ever biteing but I have heard of it in all the others. The sinaloan will musk for about 3-6 months as a baby. Hope this helps and don't take anybody to seriously on here. There are a bunch of guys that I think know a ton of stuff but until you can sort them out in your own time be careful of what you believe. Me included. For instance I still think you can get eggs in 30 days of breeding but I am crazy. LOL
Thanks Jason

Yesterday i delivered 300 feet of choila to my local herp store and i always seem to watch there animals for hours. Then i spend the money i got for the choila and get yelled at by the wife " I told you not to get another snake!!!!! " lol then i always tell her i got a great deal on it. Of course when we goto the reptile shows i always hear honey i like him. Can't win for loseing can we lol. Paul