Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Jeff Ronne believes there is no such thing as Imperator... that they are all Constrictor Constrictor.

Though he doesn't RECOMMEND breeding (for example) one from Surinam with one from Columbia, he seems to believe (know) it would work just fine if it was tried.

With this in mind...Where is the dividing line between what is possible...

How about Amarali with Constrictor? This seems like the most possible as opposed to Emerald with Amarali or Constrictor, or Brazilian Rainbow with Constrictor.

Ronne believes that Colombian Boas are of the constrictor subspecies not imperator. He does acknowledge Central American and Island imperator.

He states that although two locales are of the same species he would not knowingly cross two of them.

Imperator X Constrictor is possible and has been done so many times. ANY two Boa constrictor ssp. can be successfully crossed. Argentines are crossed with Colombians, Colombians with Surinams or Peruvians, Hog Islands with Colombian, Peruvian, and Surinam. So many have been produced.

Why would you want to breed amarali to constrictor. Amarali is such a unique and different subspecies and should be maitained pure!

Man, thanks for clearing that up. I have had my differences with Jeff over the years, but I am glad to know that he did not say anything as cockamanny as that. I was starting to get a little wound up. This guy should make darn sure that he knows exactly what someone has said BEFORE he quotes them! That is why; " I may get took out of context, but I will never quote things from other people and risk them being took out of context. " ......Johnson Herp

I didn't actually quote Ronne, but I did misunderstand...I apologize for that.

Thanks to everyone for clearing it up...

- damian

It's fine, so long as it's clear. Don't worry yourself too much.

I haven't seen where Jeff says that he wont knowingly cross locales, or subspecies, but he sure does produce a lot of hypos, and I thing everyone pretty much agrees that the original hypo mother was not a colombian. Just a thought.
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Davey Giltner

I was talking to Jeff about Colombians being BCC or Imperator, personally I will say that the far Eastern range is BCC, and the common western is BCI.

Anyway, in one of his emails Jeff said he would not knowingly cross for example Peruvian and Surinam BCC. He said the farthest he would go ever would be the Hypos with trace heritage to the original Panamanian Hypo. Although he now has a 100% Colombian Hypo, an import now breeding a pastel!

http://www.theboaphile.com/constrictor.html

Going on what you're saying here "Ronne" would be totally incorrect, and it is worth pointing out (because I believe he is being misqouted). To believe that "Colombian" boas are one or the other subspecies is totally ridiculous. Subspecies know nothing of man-made geographical borders, which in Colombia's case for example has changed considerably over the last few decades.
Look at the topography of Colombia. Look at the topography of South America in general. Look at the vegetation types. Then, look at the known subspecific ranges. You'll notice a pattern. The B.c. from the Panama / Colombia border is a far cry from the B.c that occurs between say Colombia / Brazil / Peru in Amazonia.
I personally believe that longicauda may also be present in Colombia, based on certain collections made recently in Ecuador, close to the Colombian border. But for the time being, it is safe to assume that Colombian B.c.'s belong to two subspecies.
Confusion may have arisen due to the confusion over "Leticia" boas. For this, and an overview of the Boa constrictor situation in general in Colombia, please look at a quick note I wrote for the following website:

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/com.html

Go to B.c.c and then follow thelink for Colombia.

Hope this helps

I fully agree with you. Except that Longicauda probably end their range in Ecuador.

Go to Jeffs website, theboaphile.com click on any of his available animals, under subspecies he has BCC listed for all of his Colombians. This is a link to his beliefs.

I don't want to do it.... My question is... Is it possible?

And what is it that makes Amareli so different? I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm truly wondering...

thanks

- damian

Besides their looks they are completely different in body structure. It is possible to cross them though.

They are much more heavy bodied than other B.c.ssp naturally, their head are longer, wider and much flatter. Due to their head structure eyes seem like they fit amarali better than on for instance C.A. imperator (who seem to have fatter and rounder heads). Their tails are shorter, and the tail blotches are only on the actual tail. Just some differences. Unlike other boas, but take for example sabogae, orophias, and nebulosa all of these subspecies have evolved drastic differences in body structure, not just color and pattern like many boas.

If Ronne says it; " GOD knows it must be true. " Let Jeff argue with the " REAL SCIENTIST " that went out in the field and done the research! I would take comments like that " VERY LIGHTLY. " If you want to breed weird looking boas; " breed morphs and represent them honestly and have a blast. " Keep the locality boas straight though. There is absolutely NO REASON to breed a Amarali to a Columbian or Suriname or Guyana or Peruvian ect. Keep them staight. If the almighty Boaphile really said that, that is very very sad!It is BAD INFO like that, that really give newcomers an open door to just sling anything together that they want, without regard to future generations. One day, they will stop Importation and we will have to be even more responsible to keep localities straight. Why not start now?.......Johnson Herp

Exactly! Sadly some don't understand what others say, and this guy obviously misunderstood Ronne's beliefs and opinions.

Maintainance of Pure locales and supspecies is of paramount importance. However, I feel that as long as they are PROPERLY represented that crosses have their place in our captive worlds.

I believe what Jeff Ronne has said is that some of the Colombians that he has been working with for YEARS, he believes, are BCC not BCI,and according to their scale counts they are. These are from stock that was imported in the early 1970's. As far as whether or not he has crossed them with BCI you will have to ask him that. I happen to own some of that stock and according to the scale counts I have done they would be classified as BCC.

As far as crossing the Amarali with anything.. is it physically possible? Yes....but why would you want to? They are beautiful just the way they are.

Kathy

Lets face it these animals are our toys and we ALL contributed to it being that way. There will be some people that breed locales and some that cross breed either way they are NEVER going back to the wild. I think the most important thing is that we properly document whats what, and stop importing before there is nothing left in the wild. We have cross bred everything from fruits, veggies, flowers, dogs, cats, and the list goes on and on and on. The important thing in my opinion is not to scrafice the originals when creating a new breed, and I think there are plenty of locale breeders out there to make sure that dosen't happen so long as accurate records are kept. Look at dogs, when you buy a purebred dog you get a family tree going back multiple generations. If we all kept records like that I dont think we would have any problems.

Not so much a problem itself. As you said if we represent the animals for what they are there really isn't a problem. Keeping 100% Pure Locales and Subspecies is important however, one day these captive populations may be all that is left. While we select traits of beauty we can not allow a types individual evolution to be lost through crossing.

Kathy

That is exactly right and that is what I have been saying for years on this forum and either I am saying it the wrong way or people are taking it the wrong way. Just like my point on selective breeding, I have no problem with selective breeding for color and tail and even thin saddles in Locality boas, BUT I truly believe that once we get the patterns reduced to a certain point, it is important to incorporate some bolder markings and thicker saddles into the particular bloodline so that we do not loose the uniqueness of that particular Locality bloodline that we are breeding. As I have said before; " I am talking about future reprocusions, sooner or later the imports will stop and it will be up to us, if we are going to keep a Peruvian looking like a Peruvian or a Bolivian looking like a Bolivian Ect. Ect. " This is already becoming very apparent in Bolivian and Brazilian Amarali, a ton of bloodlines out there have gotten to the point of being almost patternless and this is sad when you consider that NO MORE of those animals will be brought in from the wild to correct the problem. The almost partternless and patternless Localities that are out there are nice to look at for at least a moment, BUT then you realize what the future will hold IF they are not handled more responsible. In closing; " There are plenty of wonderful and unique and cool looking morphs out there and people have a blast with them and GOD knows that they are about the only thing selling for a really good price right now. So, if you want cool and unique and weird looking boas, why not just get into Morphs? Why mess around with the localities? They are beautiful just the way they are without us having to cross animals that would never meet in the wild or selective breed them to the point were they no longer look like the locality they are from. " Just my opinion, of course......Johnson Herp

While I do like the results of selective breeding in locales, I agree with you. Keep it natural!

I applaud Gus Rentfo's efforts with Hog Islands, although he has so many beautiful and strkeing animals, he breeds differences together to create and maitain the natural variety!

by selective breeding. Espically since like you said some day there wont be any imports to show us what there supposed to look like. I have thought about effect of crossbreeding before but never the effect of excessive selective breeding. Great Point!!!