Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What kind of Mountain Kingsnake is this??

Thanks, Harvey

Chihuahua or Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnake.

That's a Chihuahuan Mtn. king. They're found in Mexico.
South Mountain Reptiles

Don, I received her today and she was advertized as an Arizona
Mountain Kingsnake which would be Lampropeltis pyromelana
pyromelana or pyro pyro. I contacted seller who had her advertised her as a Az. Mt. King ( on kingsnake.com) and he then told me he had bought her as a Az. Mt. kingsnake from breeder. The posted picture of her on kingsnake was a top view and I did not see the busy knoblochi pattern on her side.

The seller says not his fault as he does not breed them and he had a picture posted. ( I have the posted picture would be glad to share it as it was top view of her making it hard to tell what she was) I took seller at his word in the ad she was an
Arizona Mt. King

Just wanted to be sure she is indeed not what I paid for, an
Arizona Mountain Kingsnake.

Never had this type of problem before and I am wondering what to do. I ordered three and two of the three were correct.

That's definitely not an Arizona Mountain king. If it was advertised as that, they sent you the wrong snake.

I agree that the dorsal shot does not indicate that it's a knob. Maybe it's an intergrade between the two, but I'd never call that a pyro pyro.
South Mountain Reptiles

I meant to say that the dorsal shot does not indicate that it's a knob, but the side shot sure does.
South Mountain Reptiles

I don't know where the snake above is from, and its sides look like L.p. knoblochi on first glance, but just because a pyros sides are white doesn't automatically make it from Mexico. These are from my Chiricahuan line from SE Arizona -- pure L. p. pyromelana. The white sides are a little different, but I'd like to see the whole body shot and the head also. I have even seen a zonata that had that much white on its side.

>>I meant to say that the dorsal shot does not indicate that it's a knob, but the side shot sure does.
>>South Mountain Reptiles
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Here is another photo.

Here is a pure, wild caught pyro pyro from the Santa Rita Mtns. I agree with Rick that animals from the southeast Arizona sometimes exhibit side patterns that are similar to knoblochi and they might represent some sort of intergrade. Your snake may be pyro pyro, pyro knoblochi, or some sort of captive produced intergrade.

Greg

pyromelana.com

Snout color should indicate species.

This is one of those species where subspecific names and locality data are important to the collector. The species in question is Lampropeltis pyromelana. The common name is Sonoran Mountain Kingsnake though some sources will use the name Arizona Mountain Kingsnake. There have been up to four subspecies previously recognized.

L p pyromelana, Arizona Mountain Kingsnake
L p woodini, Huachuca Mountain Kingsnake
L p infralabialis, Utah Mountain Kingsnake
L p knoblochi, Tarahumara or Chihuahua Mountain Kingsnake

Currently woodini and infralabialis have been declassified because the criteria used to distinguish them are highly variable, undiagnostic, and thus the three N American subspecies are considered indistinguishable. This new taxonomy is represented in the latest Stebbins field guide (see foot note 1) as well as updated taxonomic lists used by the scientific community.

This leaves two subspecies.

L p pyromelana, Arizona Mountain Kingsnake
L p knoblochi, Tarahumara or Chihuahua Mountain Kingsnake

But…

L p knoblochi has recently been suggested as a separate species L knoblochi (see foot note 2). This has not yet been universally adopted.

This would leave the Sonoran Mountain Kingsnake as the monophyletic species L pyromelana meaning it has no subspecies.

What this means to h_richer: Your snake is a Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnake. It is either Lampropeltis pyromelana knoblochi or Lampropeltis knoblochi depending on which taxonomy becomes standard (or you accept). As L p knoblochi it is still L pyromelana and thus can be, arguably, identified as an Arizona Mountain Kingsnake based on earlier texts, but if treated at the subspecific level it can not be considered an Arizona MK as that would be L p pyromelana. As L knoblochi it can not be considered an Arizona MK as that would be a different species entirely.

What all this means to everyone else: Like many species such as California Mountain Kings, Rosy Boas etc subspecific names and/or locality data remain important criteria for the collector and breeder. As new subspecies are named for some species they will be mute points as the hobby will already be completely saturated with hybrids or indistinguishable subspecies. Such hybrids are typically of little interest to most hobbyists and they can be of concern to wildlife management agencies.

Foot note 1
Stebbins has removed many previously listed subspecies from the latest edition of Western Reptiles and Amphibians, 3rd edition. He suggests that further taxonomic studies need to be done on the relationships between them.

Foot note 2
Lemos-Espinal, Julio A., David Chiszar & Hobert M. Smith (2003 Bulletin of the Maryland Herpetological Society 39(3): 53-58.

I hope this helps and was of interest. I enjoyed writing it.
Randy

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Firehouse Herps