Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I moved to berks county PA in 2001, and lost my interest in herps for a while. Recently I have regained my interest in conservation and research. When I lived in NY I was part of the NYS reptile and amphibian atlas project, I volunteered at the Institute of Ecosystem studies where we use radio equipment to track blandings turtles in an area where a school decided to destroy a wetland habitat for their new buildings. I am a spotted turtle owner. I have trecked through hundreds and hundreds of acres of federally protected wetlands/bogs/marshes, never once to see a spotted turtle in the wild. Ive seen more Blanding's turtle than most will see in a lifetime.

My question is this....NYS is overrun (a good thing) with herp conservation projects (at least it seems this way compared to what I can find available in PA). Who is in charge of conservation in PA? What organizations are doing studies of habitat and fauna populations? Its kind of upsetting to not be able to find ONE project of past or present that has been done for herps in my area. Whats the deal with that? Bog turtles, Spotted turtles, Wood turtles, not to mention a slew (sp?) of other animals (mostly frogs) are just left to their own fate? Somehow I doubt that, but still, where are the organizations and projects listed? Who do I get in contact with locally to answer my questions? This question probably best left for PA residents in the know to answer. Environmental conservation is completely different state to state ( as I found out trying to search for DEC, which is a NY thing, DCNR is what it is in PA ).

I dont mean to sound angry, but Im just a little upset that projects like this are so hard to find. Anyway, if anyone is involved in anything, or would like to give me an idea of where to find some good projects going on, let me know. TIA everyone.

Hey, how you doing?
When it comes to our great state of PA. All reptiles and amphibians are controlled by the Fish and Wildlife Dept. A few years back they got laws passed making it illegal to collect for sale any kind of herp. Including eggs and even body parts of dead animals. The only exception being Snappers and Timber Rattlers which there is an open hunting season on (July and August). The only species you can't collect privately, are species on the Federal Endangered List. The only herp from PA on the FEL is the Bog Turtle.
In the course of a year, you are allowed to collect 2 of every species of herp in PA for private use.
I can only assume, and I am guessing here, is that by making it illegal to sell any wild caught herp or herp product, this would relieve some of the pressure on wild herp populations, and that their numbers would increase naturally without "additional programs". Like the ones you're talking about. This sounds like a logical approach, but it's habitat loss to the greedy developers that has to be addressed. Some of our more conscientious legislators are trying to deal with the problem, but the developers have the big money and the top gun lawyers. They're not concerned about the herps.
Bob, Philadelphia.

I just read the entire thread on you're other post. I don't know how bad you want a Bog, but seriously, don't get caught with one in PA! If you can't even tell anyone about you're turtle for fear of being ratted out, what's the use of keeping it.
If you've been out and about then I'm sure you've run into some of our very dedicated game wardens. There's nothing they love more than catching someone with illegal game.
Bob, Philadelphia.

I would never take from the wild. That is what captive breeding is for. When I lived in NY I found various herps on the wetlands that I worked on, took them into the aquarium (we ran a 20,000 gallon aquarium, small but cool) set up a home for them and released them a couple days later. I was basically left alone by the park nazis...err rangers. I assure you, my intentions are honest. First of all I dont have the kind of time it would take to actually find a bog turtle, let alone want to risk getting caught with one. However...if there are any captive bog turtles that are bred, and somehow not illegal (assuming the parent is a legal turtle, the offspring would naturally be legal as well), I would spend the money to get some and breed them on my own. I do understand that peoples intentions can be hidden behind the forum posts they make, but I am not looking to illegal collect ANY animal. If the price of a captive bred bog turtle is truly 300-1000 (which I was told in a previous post) I would consider buying a few, so long as they are close the 300 mark. 1000 is too much to spend on anything, unless serious thought is put into the purchase. I just couldnt justify spending that much on a turtle. Heh, or maybe Im just not as well-off as other collectors or keepers. So, these are my thoughts, and somehow, one day, I will own those cute little bog turtles....someday.

To make any offspring legal, they have to be microchipped and DNA'd, to prove what you are saying is true. Otherwise you could collect babies and say they are from your legal pair.

So if Don Hamper raises bog turtles, does he have them microchipped and DNA'd? Im sure this isnt cheap, which is why I was told the prices of them are extremly high. Which would also mean, they arent impossible to get, just expensive.

Microchips cost $9-$11 each and DNA costs $40 per animal. It is very cheap in my opinion.
Mike

Yes, actually, I would agree that is cheap. So then I have supply and demand to thank for the huge price. Then how about this...how do I go about getting a USDI permit (which seems to be required to own Bog turtles)?

(part 1.) read this carefully wondabread.i read your last two postings on bog turtles."I" am the one ambull was talking about.i remember his phone call.in the late 60's and early 70's i bought in a pet store about a dozen bog turtles(it was legal at the time).the turtles were caught in two western jersey sites i was told.i created with my bare hands a 1/4 acre bog fed by a well in my backyard.by 1981 i had 50 adults,and was hatching over 50 hatchlings a year.for the next 9 years i released all the young in suitable habitat.then in 1991 the N.J. department of environmental persecution stopped by and searched my property.they told me if i told them how many turtles i had and showed them everything they would issue me a permit.they said their expert from turtleback zoo had told them nobody and no zoo have anything like this.then they said i had to pay a small fine for possession with out a permit.then they would issue it.(this was a trap,they knew i had been keeping bog turtles since 68,and should be grandfathered.by paying a fine"in the courts eyes"is a admission of guilt and negates everything else).after i paid the fine they returned with ray farrell and seized the bog,wood,and spotted turtles.then they called me and asked me to come down and discuss why i should get my turtles back.jim warner from wilton ct. reassured it was the right thing to do and he would go with me.well i went with him,i even wore a suit and tie.are talk lasted about 10 minutes.then they brought me in a room and interogated me with two armed c.o. officers standing by.they kept asking the same questions over and over.who do you know has bog turtles?what would you do for us?why should we give the turtles back?would i like to take a trip to florida?(im assuming they wanted me to do undercover work.)well they rushed the turtles back to me in fear i would sue them.then in 1995 they returned with a search warrant,by stating to a judge i never followed through on obtaining a permit.the fact is N.J. wont issue a permit for an endangered species to a private individual with out backing from a accredated institution(good luck with that period).well i took them to court and lost(you can't fight city hall).but let me tell you that was the best 20,000 i ever spent.first,i loved those turtles and miss them to this day.second,i kept my dignity and didn't become some informent owned by them.third,i learned you can't trust your government or should i say the "people who run it." GOD BLESS and enjoy life. D.N.A. p.s. i will try to do part 2 today.

This is just sad. They were multiplying. They were probably returned to some wetland swamp that is now a shopping mall.

That is a horrible story. I know its past, but from the get go you should have gotten a lawyer. I absolutely will not give up on this though. I am utterly disgusted with the people who run the conservation programs in PA (the ones I have emailed at least). And I too do not trust the people who run the gov't. All too many times have I been the victim only for the police to make me look like I did something wrong. I still have no idea how to go about getting any permits. It seems either no one knows the answers to my questions or doesnt want to be bothered by them. It makes me sick to see the amount of "red tape" one has to deal with when trying to actually do good. And even if I would get the answers I wanted, got permits, raised and bred endangered turtles, I would probably still get the run around from people. The more and more that I think about your story, the more and more I wished I lived in canada. (j/k....maybe)

(part two)what "I" think is going on with government.they want "full control" of everything you do.the north eastern states started it thirty years ago with a more socialistic form of thinking.they want to be able to pick and choose who gets to do what.you "can?" get a permit.but like any thing else you need government aproval for,if you jump threw hoops and kiss their a--.they don't care about you,me or the persuit of happiness.that is why their regulations are grey.they don't want anything in black and white it would leasten their authority.that is why to get a permit to keep a "captive bred bog turtle" for hobbyists is the same as a scientist asking to have a wild bog turtle to study. they don't want private individuals doing anything like this.believe me they look down their noses with contempt for our hobby. they don't see any value in "us" keeping turtles or anything alive outside outside its habitat,unless its a zoo.i also think if bog turtles went extinct in the wild for what ever reason,they wouldn't mobilize the private sector to ask for help.it would be beneath them.they would just seize them and justify it.believe me i have heard al their excuses why they can't change the regulations,they are all lame and don't hold water.most hobbyists know all of this.that is why everyone keeping "legally captive bred bog turtles" stay under ground.if "YOU" inquire about a permit "YOU" are under suspision.they call it red flagged and your put in their data base like me.they figure "a tiger can't change their stripes".their are alot of informents out their"alot".they used to be like us,but were raided and cut a deal to keep their stuff.and they have to keep informing because they never are issued a permit."they are owned".well for me("I"would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"period than make a deal with the devil.this is a cat and mouse game to them.to find people without a permit and bust them repeatedly(like drug busts alot of these c.o. oficers get off on it.)it makes "our' hobby look bad in the public eye.if we want to change the regulations to clearly distinguish,we will have to mobilize and lobby or nothing will ever change(it will get worse).and i know people are afraid to get involved"i totally understand".or at least it happens to enough people that "WE" have nothing to lose.(quote)all we have to fear is fear itself.isn't it about time our government goes back working for our people.if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.GOD BLESS and enjoy life.D.N.A.