Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey everyone! i am brand new to the dart frog hobby, and i could use some help. i am starting a new terrarium/vivarium and i have several questions. any help would be greatly appreciated! my questions are as follows:

-my background is most strongly freshwater fish. i have several tanks, all with live plants. knowing that live aquatic plants require from 2 to 5 watts of light per gallon, what will work for a 33 gallon terrarium with heavy planting? i am wondering if i can use a left over 30" twin-tube strip light from a tank, or if i need more lighting than just standard flourescent tubes.

-in a 33 gallon, how many frogs can i have? i was most interested by the dendrobates fantasticus, imitator, pumilio, reticulatus, and ventrimaculatus. i was wanting to have two of each, at least, for hope of breeding, but in my research thus far, i have not run into a clear, specific rule for how many darts in a certain gallon tank (i.e. 1 inch of freshwater fish per gallon, applied here).

-i was planning on using a 16 watt exo-terra heat wave heater to keep my tank up to temp. will this suffice, even with 2 to 3 inches of water covering the majority of the bottom of the tank?

-i would like to have 5 to 10 airline water falls/trickles going down my tank in various locations. i also would like to have the pump take the water over the back of the tank and into a 5-gallon bucket resevoir for filtration, as well as to slow evaporation. would an exo-terra repti-flow 250 mini terrarium pump be enough to power my system, or should i buy a bigger pump than this? i am thinking i will probably need two pumps- one pumping water from the tank, and another pumping water from below back up into the tank and the splitter that will take my larger-bore tubing into multiple air lines, and also possibly a mister (are they worth it?).

ok well that is about it for now, and any and all responses will be greatly appreciated! thanks for your time!

-andy

The rule is one frog per 5 gallons. You do not want to mix species however as they will interbreed. There are exceptions such as egg feeders with non-egg feeders or dendorbates with phyllobates, etc. The frogs you listed will interbreed.

As far as lighting, compact flourscents give the best growth, but some of my tanks have wal-mart plant 24" tubes for lights.

No heater is needed unless your tank is really cold. These frogs are find in room temp. You may even have to be careful with your lights as the tanks can get too hot.

Ask if you got any more questions.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

For the waterfalls, a false bottom is much easier--all self contained, no buckets, etc. Filtering isn't imperative. I have 6 dart tanks with false bottoms and water falls, none of which has a filter. An occasional water change by sumping out with an aquarium air hose and replacement is sometimes done, but the dart frogs don't foul the water and the circulation over various kinds of falls and backgrounds with mosses and plants keeps it clean. I have a paludarium, half aquarium and half dart frogs with two falls. I do have a filter in the aquarium portion for this. Four thumbnail tanks have no water features at all, and an auratus tank has none. Both work, but I do like the waterfalls and ponds. I've used several kinds of pumps. I like the Rio 600 for false bottoms, and adapted a couple of Maxi-jet 600's that work very well. Whatever you use, you need to keep it accessible somehow, in case of clogging or other mechanical failure. I've invented a couple of strategies that work, yet still keep the pump hidden from view.

You definitely shouldn't mix any of the thumbnail frogs together that you mention. Among those I have, the D. imitators seem to be the best to start with. D. pumilio is particularly territorial, so you either need a very large enclosure with separated bromeliad habitats where the competitors can't even see each other, or go through the process of pairing them up in separate habitats. D. fantasticus are great little frogs, but are expensive and rather hard to find. I haven't tried mixing any two species yet, but it is possile, because people do it successfully. In my experience, of all the frogs listed (I need to update the list to include a few more) on my signature, every one of them uses all levels of the vivarium set up for each specie. I have leucomelas that hang out in the bromeliads on the top layers that come down to ground level only to hunt, and all of my thumbnails hop around on the ground. You don't have a canopy of many meters, and rain forest bottom here, you only have about 24 inches or so from top to bottom. So essentially levels of habitat mean very little to them. I think mixing should be something to be done only after years of experience and very carefully, at that. I will never reach that level, because I'm just too happy watching them do their thing separately.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

thanks to everyone so far with your help! i really appreciate it! ok so i have continued studying these guys, and i think i like the reticulatus the best. however, noting what you and others have said, i believe i am going to start with a pair of d. imitator intermedius, or the normal imitators. hopefully, i can get a male/female pair. these are also apparently easy to breed. a couple more questions:

-if they do breed, the babies cannot be kept with the parents once they are able to leave the water, correct?

-i really like carnivorous plants, and i was wanting to have one or two in the tank amonst my other plants. my question is whether it is safe to keep thumbnails with pitcher plants. if they decide to go inside of the pitcher, will they be able to escape? if it is going to be a close call, i have no problem with not keeping the plant.

-i have not come across a lifespan for dart frogs, and thumbnails nonetheless. how long on average do most dart frogs live? thumbnails?

i am going to be setting the tank up in the next couple of weeks and i am getting very excited. thank you everyone for your help! it is very encouraging to me to have much more experienced hobbyists looking out for me. thanks again!

-andy

The D. reticulatus are great frogs, very bold and beautiful. The only reason I don't recommend them for a first dart frog is because of their size, which is incredibly tiny. This can be pretty intimidating. Otherwise, mine have all been very hardy and active.

I've kept the baby D. imitators in the same tank after morphing out. They take second fiddle, but have survived quite well. In a mixed tank (two to three females and a couple of males,) only one pair seem to breed successfully and the gals will eat each others eggs and fight a lot. Only one male seems to breed. The other just hangs out. Keeping them all together is rather fun to watch, but not the best thing for efficient reproduction. The females have fierce battles, but never seem to hurt each other. (I've even seen the secondary female attempt to feed the dominant female's tadpoles.) The loser doesn't seem to get overly stressed. I think a tank of mixed sexes is far more interesting to watch, because they stay more active and athletic. After dividing them into single pairs, they are more secretive and seem more shy to me. It depends upon what you want to do. In my experience, they don't kill the newly merged tads, just more or less ignore them if the tank isn't crowded. If you are seriously breeding, the more efficient way is to raise the tads from eggs yourself. The males aren't always smart about transporting them, and if they put more than one tad in a single brome leaf, which they sometimes do, none is likely to survive, as they the tads are cannibalistic.

With retics, you really need to remove any eggs if you keep them in a group and raise them separately, as these will get trampled by competitors. Otherwise, they seem to get along together. I have four (2.2) in a 20 gallon with falls and a lot of bromeliads. They are all all over the place, using every section from top to bottom.

These are just my personal experiences, not meant to be the last word, by any means.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus