Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The undercover F&W officer known to most as "Paul" was at the Cinnci. Herp meeting last night. He befriended alot of good people in the OH, MI, & IN area only to bust them in the end. Be careful who you trust in this area & try to abide by all pertaining laws (if you can find them). Who knows if he was there on a mission to take down the evil people who care for reptiles (instead of killing them).

The bottom line is that if people are breaking the law, they should be held accountable. I do agree that some of the laws are vague, and the loopholes are many, HOWEVER, it is the keeper's responsibility to have a good understanding of what is and what is not allowed in their respective states. If we didn't have so many shady folks (and I am not saying that the people you are alluding to are shady, just in general) blatantly or subtley breaking the law, we wouldn't have any need for covert/undercover operations like this. In the end, I would rather defend the rights of those folks who are responsible and weed out the bad apples than just taking shots at USFWS who I believe are doing the best that they can to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules (no matter how unfair they may seem).

Rob Carmichael, Curator (and private herp owner!)
Widlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

>>The undercover F&W officer known to most as "Paul" was at the Cinnci. Herp meeting last night. He befriended alot of good people in the OH, MI, & IN area only to bust them in the end. Be careful who you trust in this area & try to abide by all pertaining laws (if you can find them). Who knows if he was there on a mission to take down the evil people who care for reptiles (instead of killing them).
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Do you live in the Cincinnati area??

I gotta go with Rob here....If you're keeping animals legally, you have nothing to worry about. Regardless of whether you agree with a particular law or not, you still need to abide by it. If you feel a law is unjust, then seek to change it the right way...Keeping illegal animals only makes things more difficult for the "legal keepers".

I don't think that "stings" are "evil" at all....you wouldn't get into trouble if there was nothing to "sting"...If you wish to keep an animal in your respective state but are unsure as to the legality of such, find out BEFORE you go about acquiring it. Laws can be very vague, but if following the law is important to you (and it should be considering all the recent proposed herp-related legislation!) there are avenues by which you can find out whether a particular animal/species is legal or not. I'm not all that excited about the laws here in Az (wish they'd allow us to keep exotic venomous) but I am still bound by those same laws....If I want to keep that adamanteus or that Gabby, I'll have to pack up and move to somewhere where it is legal to do so....Ok, I'm done

-AzAtrox

I hope this post is not in response to mine. I do not know why I would have given you any of those impressions if it was... I was just hoping to see if there is a venomous keeper in the area who would be willing to help me work to bring about some changes in Ohio.

I agree with you and Rob for the record. If you abide by the law there is no issue. The one problem I do see is if a perfectly law abiding individual is approached and pestered over and over again. This does not make it right, they still may end up breaking the law, but when is enough enough. If this person turns down the "offer" 5 or 10 times, but then finally cracks on 11 when an officer is basically paying them to take the animal, what then? Yes they should have realized something was up, and yes they still are breaking the law and should be punished for the crime, but I have a hard time agreeing with that kind of law enforcement. All in all I am a proponent of the law enforcement, but still feel there is some room for reform.

There seems to be much work to be done here in Ohio. Hopefully this summer I can get started on working at some of that. I do not even currently keep venomous, but I find myself fighting for others rights while they run around getting tagged at 4 in the morning...

Jason

No worries...my post was not directed specifically at you. It was directed at those that think that law enforcement is "evil" for policing us, when we (obviously) cannot do it ourselves. I won't say that law enforcement is always proper in how they enforce the law...they aren't. But when they violate policy, there are specfic remedies in place for the victims of that violation. I worked in law enforcement, so I've seen it happen.

I think all in all, they do a good job of weeding out the "bad apples" and only wish that they had more support from those of us at wish to "do the right thing" and keep our animals legally. Do they overstep their bounds? Yes, sometimes they do...but in the world of law enforcement, if a victim states that a law enforcement officer overstepped their bounds (and their claim is at all credible), more often than not that officer is investigated and if an overstep is determined, that officer faces disciplinary. Again, I've seen this happen.

Have a good day!

-AzAtrox

Maybe you should re-read the original post. I said to abide by the pertaining laws which means do not keep HOT animals in areas where prohibited. I also said we - the people who care for snakes (instead of killing them) - are the "evil" doers - not law enforcement. The point I was trying to make was that it is perfectly legal to go out & kill every Coppereahd & black snake you see but have one in a cage & care for it & you are - and I quote - "second only to drug dealers."

Imported...

Do everyone a favor....put the 15 year old adolescent bravado away for a minute and reread my post....I'll wait for a minute...

Ok, now that you have done so, where exactly did I finger YOU in my post? I didn't....we were having a discussion about law enforcement in relation to reptiles...The ONLY people I fingered were those that engage in the keeping of illegal reptiles in their respective areas/states. If you're one of them, then I suppose I did finger you. If not, then try not to be so trigger happy with the "learn to read" quips....thanks.

Now, I have to go wash my finger off as it has fingered alot of people and is starting to smell kinda funny and turn purple.

-AzAtrox

I don't know "imported" but the previous post was very amiable and agreeable to what you were saying; sheesh, whoever you are, take a little chill pill and READ insted of REACT to what is being said. From the looks of things, I thought we were all in agreement (although I disagree with the remark that if someone gets pestered into doing somethinig illegal it makes the law enforcement wrong; no way, if you break the law, you break the law and should be held accountable). Rob

>>Imported...
>>
>>Do everyone a favor....put the 15 year old adolescent bravado away for a minute and reread my post....I'll wait for a minute...
>>
>>Ok, now that you have done so, where exactly did I finger YOU in my post? I didn't....we were having a discussion about law enforcement in relation to reptiles...The ONLY people I fingered were those that engage in the keeping of illegal reptiles in their respective areas/states. If you're one of them, then I suppose I did finger you. If not, then try not to be so trigger happy with the "learn to read" quips....thanks.
>>
>>Now, I have to go wash my finger off as it has fingered alot of people and is starting to smell kinda funny and turn purple.
>>
>>-AzAtrox
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Were you able to make any headway regarding that issue that we were discussing via email?

Drop me an email when you get the chance...

-AzAtrox

Rob,

"although I disagree with the remark that if someone gets pestered into doing something illegal it makes the law enforcement wrong; no way, if you break the law, you break the law and should be held accountable"

I think this is in response to my post. Please let me clarify. I did not say that type of law enforcement was wrong; I just said I may not agree with it. In fact I did say that if you break the law, you should be punished.

"and yes they still are breaking the law and should be punished for the crime, but I have a hard time agreeing with that kind of law enforcement"

I am having a hard time articulating my point... I realize we will probably not agree on this issue, but I want you to know that I respect your opinion greatly.

Here is an extreme, completely hypothetical example.

Let’s say I am contacted by a "fellow herper" to get out in the field. We happen across a great looking animal that is listed as endangered in the state. We take a ton of pictures without bothering it. As we are packing up to move on he starts talking about how this species is on the rebound and since this is such a great looking specimen he would not say anything if I collect it. I politely say no thanks; I would not want to put this species at any increased risk. As an afterthought I add that I would love to be able to keep a captive bred specimen but for obvious reasons I cannot. He says again we can go back for the animal and I again say no thanks. Over the next few months he offers to sell me specimens over the phone or email numerous times and every time I say no thanks. Finally, 6 months later and numerous attempts during which I always said no thanks, he offers to give me a legally obtained captive bred specimen with documentation. For whatever reason, I take the animal. Bingo, I broke the law and I should be punished. But I feel had this individual not repeatedly pestered me over and over again for a long period of time, I NEVER would have ended up with this animal. He used up countless man hours and tax dollars to "create" a criminal out of someone who probably never would have been one without his intervention. Yes he got the bad guy, and the bad guy did break the law and deserves what ever he will get. I just feel this is a poor use of resources. If someone turns down the advances once, twice, three times, move on and find another person who is more easily persuaded.

I respect law enforcement immensely, and I am sure some one out there is reading this. Quite frankly it is a great way to keep tabs on things. They are a necessary element and I am glad they are in place. Overall they do a fine job, but in certain situations sometimes I wish they used their resources more appropriately.

I was wondering if you ever received my personal message a month or two ago? I have some ideas I would like your opinion on if you do not mind.

Respectively,

Jason

Jason, I hear what you are saying (and your hypothetical scenario is probably something that has happened), but once again, that is why you have to be so careful in matters of keeping venomous herps. First, if someone offered full documentation, I would have asked for that first before even committing to taking anything. I would then show the state agencies the documentation to get their opinion (IN WRITING) and even a letter from them stating that it is approved to keep that particular snake. It doesn't take any more effort and covers all of the bases. I have seen some pretty nice folks getting nailed because they were ignorant of the laws but as they say, ignorance is not a defense. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying and its too bad we even need laws like this (but we can only blame our own "people" for screwing it up). Rob

>>Rob,
>>
>>"although I disagree with the remark that if someone gets pestered into doing something illegal it makes the law enforcement wrong; no way, if you break the law, you break the law and should be held accountable"
>>
>>I think this is in response to my post. Please let me clarify. I did not say that type of law enforcement was wrong; I just said I may not agree with it. In fact I did say that if you break the law, you should be punished.
>>
>>"and yes they still are breaking the law and should be punished for the crime, but I have a hard time agreeing with that kind of law enforcement"
>>
>>I am having a hard time articulating my point... I realize we will probably not agree on this issue, but I want you to know that I respect your opinion greatly.
>>
>>Here is an extreme, completely hypothetical example.
>>
>>Let’s say I am contacted by a "fellow herper" to get out in the field. We happen across a great looking animal that is listed as endangered in the state. We take a ton of pictures without bothering it. As we are packing up to move on he starts talking about how this species is on the rebound and since this is such a great looking specimen he would not say anything if I collect it. I politely say no thanks; I would not want to put this species at any increased risk. As an afterthought I add that I would love to be able to keep a captive bred specimen but for obvious reasons I cannot. He says again we can go back for the animal and I again say no thanks. Over the next few months he offers to sell me specimens over the phone or email numerous times and every time I say no thanks. Finally, 6 months later and numerous attempts during which I always said no thanks, he offers to give me a legally obtained captive bred specimen with documentation. For whatever reason, I take the animal. Bingo, I broke the law and I should be punished. But I feel had this individual not repeatedly pestered me over and over again for a long period of time, I NEVER would have ended up with this animal. He used up countless man hours and tax dollars to "create" a criminal out of someone who probably never would have been one without his intervention. Yes he got the bad guy, and the bad guy did break the law and deserves what ever he will get. I just feel this is a poor use of resources. If someone turns down the advances once, twice, three times, move on and find another person who is more easily persuaded.
>>
>>I respect law enforcement immensely, and I am sure some one out there is reading this. Quite frankly it is a great way to keep tabs on things. They are a necessary element and I am glad they are in place. Overall they do a fine job, but in certain situations sometimes I wish they used their resources more appropriately.
>>
>>I was wondering if you ever received my personal message a month or two ago? I have some ideas I would like your opinion on if you do not mind.
>>
>>Respectively,
>>
>>Jason
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob,

You are right; you need to be sure to cover all of your bases. If you are not going to do things the right way, then don't do them at all. I have not even been considering this issue with venomous but the herp culture in general. I know we can both agree that when venomous are involved the risks are greatly increased. When people cut corners it affects everyone. Even though it was a hypothetical situation and not one that happens too often, I guess I would rather see that money being used to go after the bigger fish in the see (A more willing criminal, previous offender, etc). Anyway, I have enjoyed this discussion and hope to be able to see your facility someday.

Jason

What if about halfway thru Jason's scenario, the criminal to be contacted the local wildlife enforcement agency & reported this clown as a potential criminal? Even offer to do a reverse sting on the sob? If the agency knew the clown was an agent, they might tell him to back off. If not, as long as you had documentation of the communication, it might go a long way towards wrecking any future case against you.

~~Greg~~

" Operation Rock Cut " and " Operation Slither " and I wouldn't be surprised if some of this isn't going to be attached to " Operation Snapper " when it gets done ! How about the Atlanta Sting Operation some years ago that had LEGAL permitted people and legal wild caught animals that was shipped to AKA > Atlanta Wildlife Exchange that busted people for the shipping into Georgia where it was illegal !