Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I thought it was an Industry Standard or unwritten rule the seller always had a guarantee of live delivery. I read and understand that someone must be there to sign for then and accept
delivery. But come on if a person has paid out their money they will be there or get someone to receive them.

I am having a problem with a seller over a couple of snakes and had not read the fine print. I did not know there are dealers selling snakes without a live delivery. I do not want to point any fingers only to urge everyone to read the terms. I have been messing with a few snakes for a few years and I have not heard of not getting a guarantee of live delivery if someone there to receive them. I looked at several ads and did not see many ( really only one) that does not have a guarantee of live delivery.

Some require Delta or pickup at the carrier's office.

I had read the fine print I would not have ordered them without a live delivery guarantee. They made it to me well packed and alive.

As a custumer I expect to receive them live. Also some even
guarantee them for a few to several hours after delivery.

I urge you to Please ! Read the terms and conditions.
This way you and seller understand each other.

If you agree with their terms ,order, if not, find terms you agree with from another breeder or source.

I was guilty of not posting live delivery guaranteed on my ads I assumed every had a live delivery guarantee. I will post it on my ads from now on.

In closeing read terms but if terms are not posted ask about a live delivery guarantee or other questions before you order.

I've always been negatively impressed with the number of people that don't guarantee live delivery. I know you're going to say that not everyone shipping reptiles does it for a living (professionally), but if they want to make money selling things, they should guarantee live delivery. Here are my thoughts.

One can never know if the carrier will properly handle the packages and sometimes the death could be their fault. This is not the fault of the receiver. If the shipper packed it properly, just about every possible problem doesn't have to result in the snake's death or illness. I ship over 1,000 packages a year through Fed Ex. I typically replace four or five snakes per year and have only had three snake arrive dead in the past five years. Most of the snakes I replace did not arrive dead nor did they appear to be sick. They just didn't eat for the customer. Another thing we guarantee. I can think of several times the packages were lost in transit for up to a week. One time three boxes going all over the country were lost for a week. I shipped on Monday and all three customers called me the following Monday afternoon to say they were fine. Never heard from those customers after that. I had a package lost going to Detroit from Texas in December. It was in transit for four days and spent the weekend in a warehouse when it was snowing there. The snakes arrived cold, but are alive today. That was five years ago. Except for loss, most forms of mishandling should not result in the snake's death. I think my stats are evidence of this. Yes, I'm an authroized reptile shipper with Fed Ex and they do not guarantee live delivery. I do! In the past many years of shipping door to door, not one package was lost by Fed Ex, UPS or Airborne. That amounts to over 5,000 packages.

In the case of the amateurs shipping. I realize they might only have one snake like the one they're shipping and it would be difficult or impossible to replace it if it died. However from seeing my statistics it's possible to have almost a 100% live delivery rate so d.o.a. animals should be replaced at the shipper's expense OR a refund should be given. The seller initiated the sale and should stand behind his/her products from start to finish. Even if it was in the hands of strangers inbetween. The seller at least had some influence on the success of live delivery. The receiver had none.

Something to be careful about. If you sell a snake that arrives dead, you might be libel for more than you think. If it was paid for with a USPS money order, you could be guilty of mail fraud. Accepting and cashing a money order for services not rendered. ie: someone buying a LIVE snake, but getting a DEAD one. If paid by credit card (even PayPal) a dead delivery is about the only way they'll stand behind the buyer. Finally, if a customer files a d.o.a. complaint with the carrier, they'll be told they don't pay such claims, but the person shipping the snake might be in alot of trouble. Even if live delivery isn't guaranteed, the shipper could lose his/her rights to ship snakes with that company. Hence, it's in the best interest of the seller to guarantee live delivery. It's the right thing to do, it's good for business and they potentially stay out of trouble since the few dollars they spend on replacements is nothing compared getting sued or busted by the feds. There are federal laws governing the shipping of reptiles whether the carrier permits or doesn't know you're doing it.

Just some food for thought.
South Mountain Reptiles

Very well said. I think it is absolutely ludicrous for breeders or dealers to not guarantee live arrival 100% of the time they ship. If they (sellers) do their homework regarding the weather en-route, and take care to pack and insulate the box securely, in almost all cases the animal will arrive alive and in the same condition as when it left the seller's facility. In those extremely rare cases when all of the proper steps are taken and a snake dies in transit, it should be up to the seller to replace the animal or refund the money of the buyer....period. To paraphrase Don, nobody knowingly buys a dead snake.

If it was too cold, the seller shouldn't have shipped, if the box was handled roughly and the snake died, the seller didn't pack it securely enough. It is on the seller, or it should be anyway. When I ship, I take the time to check the weather and pack and insulate the shipping container securely, because I know if something goes wrong it will be my fault and I will take responsibility for my mistake. If the snake does not eat within days and thrive for the customer (guaranteed to do so for a month), I didn't hold up my end of the deal. Potential buyers should make themselves more aware of seller's policies and for the good of the industry avoid people who don't stand behind their product 100% of the time.

Will

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np

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Well its sorta odd territory. UPS, DHL and FedEx dont ship animals per there rules. So both parties are taking a risk so the answer would be IMHO to split the cost. If the carrier messes up and kills the animals how is that the sellers fault ? Why should he be out the snakes anymore than you are out the money ? You are dealing with people not Walmart so the same standards dont apply. You enter into a deal knowing there are risks involved in shipping anything live. There are times when the shipper can mess things up and thats different i.e. improper packaging,wrong addy or not paying attention to weather on his end. Ive always felt that the receiver should be responsible for weather updates on his end in other words if you think its too cold tell the shipper(seller) not to ship. So its dicey but hey to me thats the risk you take nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything if you dont like the idea of shipping then there always Shows and sometimes you can meet people if they live close.

Keith
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I understand what you are saying and I agree the seller can not always control what happens. BUT....

I always check the buyers weather by putting their zip code into one of the weather programs and checking their weather before shipping.

I am only saying checkout the seller's guarantee or lack of guarantee. If you are happy with their methods, order, if not check out another person's until you find someone's you agree with.

With a large (for me) order I did not receive what was stated in the ad and another snake has yet to eat for me. Two of the main three have eaten. I then read the fine print. I was shocked
to think of losing my entire order as it was stated they would not guarantee live delivery. It was my fault for not asking or reading the fine print but I had ordered a snake from them a year or so ago with no problems and see their ads in kingsnake often. To me as both a seller and buyer it is a given the seller makes sure the buyer receives what he ordered a live snake(s).

I can see your point in wanting a live arrival guarantee and the more I think about it the more Im inclined to agree. Ive never shipped an animal to anyone thats died during transport (knock on wood)and Ive shipped many snakes. The key is to ship smart. One thing Ive encountered is overzealous buyers who want their snakes no matter the conditions but Ive always did what was best for the snakes etc... I just think of scenarios like say I purchased a snake for 300 bucks then I decide to sell it for 300 to another guy and then it dies during shipment and its neither the seller or buyers fault. Why is it that one guy takes all the risk and the other doesnt ? To me if its a couple of guys making a deal we have both entered into an agreement thats a gamble. There are no two ways to cut it shipping live animals has risked thats why the carries dont guarantee live arrival. Now the guys above are looking at it from the point of view of snakes "they produced" so its not such a hard pill to swallow to replace a 40 corn that they produced. Guys like Soderberg should have a guarantee as he is making "$" and can make up for the loss, but there are more guys who dont make a cent and either break even or less. Don S. is not the norm in Reptile breeders as he states he makes money where I would guess alot more of us dont. I just dont know I know as a buyer and believe me I buy more than I sell lol I would like a guarantee but as a seller I would want some protection ! I guess you cant have it both ways so I would probably replace any deceased animals that die during shipment.

Keith
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Keith I think you are right that it is unfair for one party to take all the risk but I also believe that if you are selling healthy animals and you pack them right you should not have problems. That said I see alot of live guarantees with disclaimers that state the shipper is not responsible for carrier mistakes. I don't know where I stand on this as a buyer I don't want to have a $300 order get lost and find out I have nowhere to turn and am out $300. As a seller I don't want to ship a $300 order and find out it got misshandled and the animals died AND I AM OUT $300.
Aside from mishandled packages I don't see any reason a animals would not make the trip unless it was subpar before it left. So all animals shipped should be guaranteed to be live upon arrival. Some people go for varying lengths after arrival but that gets scary when you have new keepers at the other end of the deal. I still think a min. 10 day period for problems to be reported is a must but I don't know how far I would go beyond 30 days.
I would be interested where some of the bigger guys stand on carrier mistakes. I know alot of people will eat it if a package gets lost just so they don't make enemies. So how about it Don and any other of the bigger shippers (over 100 shipments a year) that are reading this thread where do you stand and what is your policy on carrier mistakes.
Thanks Jason

At SMR, we guarantee live delivery if the first delivery attempt is successful. That is, IF the customer is not available for the first delivery attempt and it has to go back on the truck, live delivery is not guaranteed. I can't remember a time this was a problem. Yes, many times our customers weren't there for the first attempt, but I can't remember a time it resulted in an animal's death.

As a buyer, I was solicited to make the purchase. Either I was attracted to an ad or a web site or referred by a friend. Whatever way it was, someone was in the "business" of taking money. My money. If they can't afford to guarantee live delivery, maybe they should raise their prices so they can. If they don't want to guarantee live delivery, they should make local sales only.

If the seller thinks they can't afford to replace a d.o.a animal or give a refund, they should start charging 10% more than usual so they can put it in the bank for such eventualities. I don't think the customer should have to pay it.

Here's logic even the seller's that refuse to guarantee live delivery can't deny. Would they appreciate taking a $300.00 loss if they ordered a snake that arrived dead? If the answer is YES, then buck up and offer live arrival now. Then, they should only purchase snakes from others that offer live arrival. If their answer is NO they wouldn't like to take that loss, then they are knowlingly cheating their customers in the event of a d.o.a.

Nobody knows what happens to that box once you hand it to the carrier, but if your animal is healthy and you pack correctly, the liklihood of a d.o.a is almost nill. My d.o.a. percentage is 1% and I ship thousands of snakes annually. All of them door to door. It's not easy shipping in the winter when it's 70 degrees here and 10 degrees on the other end, but I've been shipping every week of the year for the past six years. Minnesota in January and Phoenix in August. That shipping success is all about planning and packing.

My advice to anyone is this. If the seller isn't confident enough in their product and services (including the carrier he/she contracted to handle it), don't do business with them. They don't deserve your hard earned dollars. In a way, the lack of guarantee encourages them to be complacent. They have your money in advance so why should they wait 'till 6:00 pm to ship it to you? Why should they spend the extra energy to research weather conditions here, there and at the hub in-between? Why should they put in an extra heat pack when needed? There are no refunds so it won't cost them a dime if it arrives dead.

Last year, I contacted someone advertising a pair of sub adult leucistic Texas rats. I asked them how they wanted payment and they told me. At the last second, I checked their site and sure enough. It said they didn't guarantee live delivery. They said that because it's out of their hands when they give it to the carrier and they don't know how it's being treated, they didn't guarantee live delivery. Wow. I wrote back and said that because they didn't guarantee live delivery, I wasn't ordering from them. I don't know how anyone can do business like that in the live animal shipping industry. They want the profits, but want the customer to take all the risks.
South Mountain Reptiles

I dont disagree with you Don but the 1st delivery attempt policy is flawed. Ive had FedEx and UPS claim they made an attempt to deliver to my house and I know others that this has happened to. My guess is when the delivery boys run behind they pull that crap. I had a Airborne person do this to me twicein a row! Anyway Don if the box is then bouncin around in a super hot truck or cold truck because of Driver laziness how is your customer going to prove this ? What if a 1000.00 order goes down the tubes because of it ? I bet alot of dealers would think that customer was full of BS especially if there is a significant dollar amount attached as the carrier wouldnt be responsible for one cent except delivery cost. To think these things and other unthought of scenarios dont happen is naive. You made the point oif packing your product well and I agree but a hot truck is gonna kill a snake no matter how you pack it if it rides in there all day. As a side note one way Ive totally avoided the heat for shipping is to send it to the hub in that persons city. I sent a box to a guy in AZ in July and to wait for a cool day was silly. I simply sent it to his Airborne hub and he picked it up that afternoon. That box never saw the AZ heat so it was perfect.

Keith
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